FUNDAMENTAL PROTESTANT RAPTURE TEACHINGS
RETURN OF CHRIST IN TWO PARTS?
by
Keith Hunt
TWO OF THE MOST POPULAR AND WELL-KNOWN PROTESTANT PROPHETS - TIM
LAHAYE AND ED HINDSON, HAVE GIVEN A LENGTHY EXPLANATION TO THE
FUNDAMENTAL CHRISTIAN TEACHING EMBRACED BY THEIR FOLLOWERS, ON
THE "RAPTURE."
WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT "RAPTURE" TO THEM MEANS "RESURRECTION"
BUT HOW THEY PUT THIS RESURRECTION TRUTH OF THE BIBLE TOGETHER
WITH CHRIST'S COMING ..... WELL THAT IS A DIFFERENT MATTER
ALTOGETHER.
THIS IS A SOMEWHAT LONG STUDY, BUT I NEED TO ANSWER THESE
FUNDAMENTAL GUYS SO YOU THE READER CAN SEE THE FOLLY OF AND THE
DECEPTIVE WAY THEY THINK AND CANNOT PUT SCRIPTURE WITH SCRIPTURE,
TO ASCERTAIN THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER.
WE START WITH LAHAYE AND HINDSON
................,.,..
THE RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH is one of the most compelling and
exciting prophetic events in the Bible. It is clearly taught in 1
Thessalonians 4:15-18 (NKJV), where the apostle Paul provides us
with these details:
This we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are
alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no
means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself
will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an
archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in
Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet
the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the
Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
This passage of Scripture delineates five stages to the rapture:
(Remember now "rapture" is here understood as "resurrection" -
which is true - Keith Hunt)
(1) The Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout and
with the sound of a trumpet, (2) the dead in Christ will
rise first, (3) we who are alive and remain on the earth will be
"caught up" (Greek, "harpazo") together with them in the clouds,
(4) we will meet the Lord, and (5) we shall always be with Him.
(So far so good - the 5 points are indeed what 1 Thes.4:15-18
cover - Keith Hunt)
The apostle Paul also unveiled what he called a mystery
pertaining to the rapture. In 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, He
explained that some Christians would not sleep (die), but their
bodies would be instantly transformed.
Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we
shall all be changed-in a moment, in the twinkling of an
eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and
the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be
changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and
this mortal must put on immortality.
(Correct so far. The resurrection to eternal life takes place at
the LAST trumpet! Notice it, mark it "last trumpet." So there is
then more than one trumpet sound. The book of Revelation gives us
7 trumpers - Keith Hunt)
This is what will happen when the rapture rakes place: Without
warning, the bodies of all believers who have died since the day
of Pentecost will suddenly be transformed into new, living,
immortal, resurrected bodies. Even those whose bodies have long
since decayed or whose ashes have been scattered out over the
oceans will receive a new body. This new body will be joined
together with the person's spirit, which Jesus will bring with
Him. Then the bodies of those who have likewise accepted Christ
as their Savior and are alive at that moment will also be
instantly translated into new immortal bodies. Together, all
believers will be instantaneously transported into the heavens to
meet the Lord. Those who are alive and have rejected the
salvation of Jesus Christ will remain behind on earth and will
witness a miraculous event of astonishing proportions - the
sudden mass disappearance of millions upon millions of people
from the face of the earth.
(Now we start into their truth and error. First, it is not only
those since Pentecost who will be in this resurrection. It will
be ALL true saints or children of God since Adam. Many verses in
the entire Bible prove EVERY child of God since Adam will be
resurrected at the last trumpet. The Bible nowhere speaks of some
OTHER resurrection at some OTHER time for those children in God,
before the NT Pentecost. You search the Scriptures and see if you
can find any such mention of another resurrection for saints from
Adam to Pentecost. I'll give you one thousand dollars if you can
find it.
The idea that the unsaved will witness the disappearance of
MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS from the earth, is another deceptive
falsehood of the fundamental prophets. Their idea on this
contradicts the plain teachings of Jesus, who said His "flock"
would be the "little flock" (the Greek means "very little flock"
- it's a double diminutive in the Greek); He also said His
followers would be the "salt of the earth" - salt among the meal
is very little, sprinkled here and there. According to Jesus
in Matthew 24 it is the MANY who are deceived, in fact before
He comes again He said deception would be so great that IF it
possible even the elect would be deceived - Keith Hunt)
THE BLESSED HOPE
The rapture is often referred to as "the blessed hope" (Titus
2:13) because it provides assurance to believers who are
concerned about the coming Tribulation, and it offers comfort to
those who long to be reunited with their departed loved ones who
share a faith in Christ.
(Yes the resurrection is a "blessed hope" but now you try to find
where this blessed hope of the resurrection is tied in with the
coming "tribulation" - see if you can find "resurrection" and
"tribulation" put together as resurrection from "the tribulation"
is our hope. Just another slight of hand talk as if it is a fact
that resurrection offers hope for those concerned about the
coming tribulation. True the resurrection does offer comfort to
be with other dead true saints of God, but again a slight of hand
talk to sooth and dull your mind, as the truth is many of your
loved ones may not have been true Christians at all, and will not
be in this resurrection at the last trumpet sound. The slight of
hand is the idea that the majority of "Christians" are true
Christians, when in fact true Christians are the salt of the
earth, and not the millions as they want you to believe - Keith Hunt)
The more than 300 biblical references to the second coming of
Christ clearly show that His return has two distinct phases. The
contrasting elements cannot be merged into a single event (see
the article titled "Second Coming of Christ").
(Notice the DOGMATIC claim about the 300 references to the second
coming of Christ. They are very dogmatic that Jesus' return is in
TWO PHASES, and cannot be merged into a single event. Now these
two men are so "looked up to" in the fundamental Protestant
world that most of their readers will say, "It has to be so, for
these men are such giants of the Scriptures, such great leaders
in the Christian fundamental world, they must be correct." And so
tens or hundreds of thousands will accept their word as "gospel"
as we say. AND do not think for one moment these two guys (Lahaye
and Hindson) do not know this. They know their readers look to
them with "awe" and "are spell-bound" with what they say and
write. Those guys know their readers will accept what words come
from them, with no questioning. Hence right at the beginning they
have tranquilized their readers - they have them hooked as we say
- Keith Hunt)
In the first phase, He will come suddenly to rapture His church
in the air and take all believers to His Father's house in
fulfilment of His promise in John 14:1-3. There, they will
appear before the judgment seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:8-10).
(Now they move on after tranquilizing their readers, with more
clever brain-washing, and throw in a few Scriptures. They tell
their readers Jesus will come and take His believers to heaven
and throw in John 14:1-3. Now turn to that passage, open up your
Bible. See if you can find the word "heaven" in those 3 verses.
Nope it ain't there! Heaven, going back to heaven, is not
mentioned at all. All that Jesus says is He will come and receive
His followers, and where He is in receiving them, "where I am" He
says "there you may be also." Put that with 1 Thes. 4:13-17 [that
Lahaye and Hindson have already given you] and the Bible
interprets the Bible - the saints of God meet, receive Christ in
the AIR, in the CLOUDS, and shall ever be with Him. But 1
Thes.4:13-17 does NOT tell you WHERE Christ will be after He has
received the saints in the clouds, in the air. You must let OTHER
verses of Scripture tell you that; letting the Bible interpret
itself.
Now concerning 2 Cor.5:8-10. Again see if you can find the word
"heaven" or "Father's throne" or "in heaven" - nope it ain't
there! Now you can find "present with the Lord." So the question
you should be asking is "WHEN are we present with the Lord?" Even
Lahaye and Hindson have given you that answer, as they gave you 1
Thes. 4:13-18 and 1 Cor.15:50-53 - at the LAST trumpet sound,
when Jesus comes to receive the saints in the AIR, in the
CLOUDS.
SO, again with slight of hand, knowing their readers will lap up
their words as "gospel" they take John 14:1-3 and 2 Cor.5:8-10
and TELL YOU it is all IN HEAVEN in the Father's house. I've show
you in other studies that the Father's house is the Kingdom of
God, which Jesus will bring with Him on His return, to set up the
Kingdom of God on earth for the first 1,000 years. There is
nothing in John 14:1-3 and 2 Cor.5:8-10 that says the saints GO
BACK TO HEAVEN WHERE THE FATHER IS, after Jesus has received the
saints in the CLOUDS, in the AIR of this earth. And to PROVE they
do not, you let the Bible interpret the Bible. So you go to
Zechariah 14 and there you CLEARLY see that in the day the
Messiah Jesus returns, His feet stand on the Mount of Olives, and
Jesus is Lord of all; the Kingdom of God has come to earth, as
mentioned in dozens of passages in the Bible.
OH the simplicity of the Bible when you let the Bible interpret
itself - Keith Hunt)
While the believers are in heaven, those left behind on the earth
will experience the trials of the seven-year Tribulation period.
(And once more Lahaye and Hindson just tell you what will then
happen. They know they have their readers already under their
spell. They know their readers are mainly Bible illiterates,
people who never check up, never question, never search the
Scriptures. They know their readers have already been brain-
washed to accept millions [as they think] will escape the great
tribulation, which is for 7 years - another brain-washing
teaching that the fundamental prophets have seared into the minds
of their followers. Lahaye and Hindson already know the idea of
escaping via an invisible coming of Christ. The 7 year great
tribulation, has already been accepted by hundreds of thousands
of fundamental Christians, so they just tell the people what the
people want to hear, what they have been brian-washed into
accepting from these [and others] "great" and "awesome" teachers
of fundamental Christianity. So they know it's easy to just say
words, for they are speaking to "no-searchers of the Scriptures"
to people who will not prove all things and hold to that which is
good - Keith Hunt)
In the second phase of Jesus' second coming (the glorious
appearing), He will return to earth in great power and glory to
set up His millennial kingdom.
(And so we go again. Lahaye and Hindson, just continue with what
they know the many they write to have accepted already, what many
of their "minister friends" have taught for decades, what has
been brain-washed into the minds of all their followers. They
continue with the SECOND PHASE of the coming of Christ. After
Jesus has gone back to heaven with the saints, for 7 years, He
will come in phase two, in "glorious appearing" to set up the
Kingdom of God on earth for the millennium or 1,000 years - Keith
Hunt)
The entire second coming has been compared to a two-act play (the
rapture and the glorious appearing) with a seven-year
intermission (the Tribulation).
(Yep....indeed, so many fundamental prophets have taught this
"two-act play" - taught it for decades, drubbed it into their
hearers, their followers, branded it in their minds so deeply,
their sheep just do not question it. Their sheep are asleep, and
the fundamental prophets know it. They themselves are blinded, so
the blind follow the blind. The blind continue to teach this idea
of two phases of Christ's return with a 7 year tribulation
in-between, and the blind followers keep following the blind
teachers. So the blind teachers says words as if it is fact, and
their blind followers believe the words as it is fact. So the
circle continues - Keith Hunt)
The apostle Paul distinguishes between these two phases in Titus
2:13, where he refers to the rapture as the "blessed hope" and
the return of Christ to the earth as "the glorious appearing."
(Whattttt.... to put the phrase "blessed hope" and "glorious
appearing" - to interpret for you that this one verse is
teaching a "two phase" return of Christ, with one phase as a
"secret rapture" and another phase as a visible "glorious
appearing" with 7 years tribulation between the two phases, IS
PUTTING INTO THIS VERSE THINGS THAT ARE JUST NOT THERE PERIOD. No
word "tribulation" is there. No word "phase" is there. No word
"two" is there. No word "seven" or "years" or "heaven" is there.
The hope and appearance can just as easily be Paul speaking about
the SAME event - it is "the hope" and it is "the glorious
appearing." The hope is the resurrection for the saints as 1 Cor.
15 shows. The glorious appearing is Jesus coming in glory.
Putting 1 Cor.15 with 1 Thes.4:13-18 - letting the Bible
interpret the Bible. Putting 1 Cor. 15 with 1 Thes.4:13-18 WITH
Zechariah 14, YOU HAVE THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER! Then add
Revelation 11:15-18 and add also Matthew 24:29-31 and you have
more of the truth of the matter. I mean a child can put those
verses together and add them up to ONE COMING of Christ [not a
two-phased coming] that is BOTH a great hope and a great
appearing.
But again Lahaye and Hindson are writing to people who have been
brain-washed for decades, who have accepted a two-phased coming
of Christ, secret and glorious, with 7 years between them. Lahaye
and Hindson are writing to themselves [and other minister
friends] who are so brain-washed by this secret and open two-
phased return of Jesus that to them Titus 2:13 is speaking about
two phases with 7 years between the phases. They read into this
verse exactly what they want to read into it, so the circle is
unbroken - round and round it goes - Keith Hunt)
WHAT DOES RAPTURE MEAN?
The English word rapture comes from the Latin word "raptus,"
which in Latin Bibles translates the Greek word "harpazo," used
14 times in the New Testament. The basic idea of the word is "to
suddenly remove or snatch away." It is used by the New Testament
writers in reference to stealing or plundering (Matthew 11:12;
12:29; 13:19; John 10:12,28-29) and removing (John 6:15; Acts
8:39; 23:10; Jude 23).
The New Testament employs a third use, which focuses on being
caught up to heaven. It describes Paul's "third heaven"
experience (2 Corinthians 12:2,4) and Christ's ascension to
heaven (Revelation 12:5). Obviously, "harpazo" is the perfect
word to describe God suddenly taking up the church from earth to
heaven at the first part of Christ's second coming.
(Now they start to add some technical stuff; oh this will really
sound good and "scholarly" to their readers; the readers will
really stand in "awe" now. The Greek word means what it means and
can be used in various contexts. No argument. I agree. And anyone
with any common sense that reads about the resurrection of the
saints, knows it will be sudden; in the twinkle of an eye Paul
says those living to see Jesus return will be changed from mortal
to immortality, at the LAST trump - 1 Cor.15. But Lahaye and Hindson
go on to say, "Obviously 'harpazo' is the perfect word to describe God
SUDDENLY TAKING UP THE CHURCH FROM EARTH TO HEAVEN AT THE FIRST
PART OF CHRIST'S SECOND COMING."
Did you notice it? Did you get it? Along with the technical word
[which I have no argument with] they do more word adding from
themselves: "taking up the church from earth to heaven at the
first part of Christ's coming." Go to a Bible lexicon, go to
Strong's Concordance, and see if when looking up this word
"harpazo" you can find "taking up the church from earth to heaven
at the first part of Christ's second coming." Give you 10,000
dollars if you can. Lahaye and Hindson have added their decades
long teaching of a "secret invisible" return with a "first part"
of Christ's second coming.
To the brain-washed follower of the fundamental prophets
teaching, all this sounds real good, for the guys have added some
"technical" stuff to their teaching..... wow stand in awe again!
Of course the resurrection will be sudden and unexpected by the
un-Christian world, and by the false Christians who will be at
the time following the false prophet of the book of Revelation -
Keith Hunt)
WILL THE RAPTURE BE PRETRIBULATIONAL?
The Church Is Not on Earth in Revelation 4-18
The common New Testament term for church (Greek, ekklesia) is
used 19 times in Revelation 1-3, which deals with the historical
church of the first century. However, Revelation uses church once
more - at the very end (22:16), where John returns to addressing
the first-century church. Most interesting is the fact that
nowhere during the Tribulation period is the term church used in
reference to believers on earth.
(This technical argument I have proven to be totally false and
again a made up fancy of the fundamental prophets who want to
hold to a two-phased second coming of Christ, a secret rapture
and a glorious appearing, with 7 years between them. I've
answered this argument in other studies on the "Secret Rapture"
teaching on this website. I refer the reader to those other
studies - Keith Hunt)
John's shift from his detailed instructions for the church to his
absolute silence about the church for many chapters is remarkable
and totally unexpected if in fact the church continued into the
Tribulation. If the church were to experience the Tribulation
(the seventieth week of Daniel 9), then surely the most detailed
study of Tribulation events would include instructions for the
church. But it doesn't. The only explanation for this frequent
mention of the church in Revelation 1-3 and total absence of the
church on earth until Revelation 22:16 is a pretribulation
rapture, which will relocate the church from earth to heaven
prior to the Tribulation.
(Again I refer the reader to my other studies in which I prove
Lahaye and Hindson [with their other minister friends] to be in
total error on the point they now bring up. And in those other
studies I prove there will be NO PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE of the
saints to heaven while the earth goes under a 7 year great
tribulation period - Keith Hunt)
A POSTtribulational Rapture Is Inconsequential
If God miraculously preserves the church through the Tribulation,
why have a rapture? If it is to avoid the wrath of God at
Armageddon (at the end of the Tribulation), then why would God
not continue to protect the saints on earth (as is postulated by
posttribulationism) just as He protected Israel (see Exodus 8:22;
9:4,26; 10:23; 11:7) from His wrath poured out upon Pharaoh and
Egypt? Further, if the purpose of the rapture is for living
saints to avoid Armageddon, why also resurrect the saints (who
are already immune) at the same time?
(There is NO teaching in the Bible of some "rapture" of the
church to avoid "the day of the Lord" or some other mighty
events, before Jesus comes in power and visible glory. The
rapture or resurrection comes AFTER God has preserved some of His
saints during the tribulation and day of the Lord. The rapture or
resurrection comes at the LAST trumpet sound, at the time Jesus
comes ONCE only, visible and glorious, to resurrect the dead
saints and to change the living saints to immortality; to receive
them all in the clouds, in the air of this earth, and in that day
(Zech. 14) to set foot on the Mount of Olives, and to establish
the Kingdom of God on earth. See my many other studies on this
subject on this website, under "prophecy" - Keith Hunt)
If the rapture took place in connection with our Lord's
posttribulational glorious appearing, the subsequent separation
of the sheep from the goats (Matthew 25:31-46)
would be redundant. Separation would have taken place in the very
act of translation.
(Lahaye and Hindson have a mind that reads right over words of
the Bible. So it is often with false prophets and false teachers
of the Bible. Open your Bible. Turn to Matthew 25. Start reading
from verse 31. Did you notice the last words? If not look again -
what does it say? It says, "THEN [after His coming in glory, with
the holy angels - see Matt. 24:30,31] SHALL HE SIT UPON THE
THRONE OF HIS GLORY!!!"
Now go to Luke 1:31-33. Jesus is to receive the THRONE OF DAVID
and a Kingdom that shall last forever - no end. Jesus has NOT YET
been given the throne of David. Jesus has not yet returned to
establish a Kingdom that will have no end. Neither of these
things did Jesus receive in His physical life on earth. When He
returns in GLORY, He will sit upon the throne of David. THEN -
THEN, the sheep will be divided from the goats - THEN - DURING
THE 1,000 YEAR AGE, when Jesus rules the nations of earth for
1,000 years will the sheep be divided from the goats.
OH the folly, and the stupid reading that some fundamental prophets
have in reading the Bible - Keith Hunt)
If all Tribulation-era believers are raptured and glorified after
the Tribulation and just prior to the inauguration of the
millennial kingdom, who then will be left to populate and
propagate the kingdom?
(This is another case where Lahaye and Hindson minds are all
mixed up and up-side-down and in-side-out. The people left after
the saints are resurrected and made immortal at the coming of
Christ in glory, after the great tribulation and day of the Lord,
will be the physical people of the earth, whom Jesus and the
saints will rule and bring salvation to. They will be the ones
where the dividing of the sheep from the goats will take place,
all during that 1,000 year age - Keith Hunt)
The Scriptures indicate that God will judge the living
unbelievers at the end of the Tribulation and remove them from
the earth (see Matthew 13:41-42; 25:41).
(The context of the above verses given and many other passages of
the entire Bible, show that the dividing of sheep from goats,
takes place over 1,000 years, and then the goats or chaff are put
in the furnace of fire - the second death - see Revelation 20.
There is judgment on the nations of the earth at the coming of
Christ, but passage after passage in the books of the holy
prophets of the Bible, CLEARLY teach, NOT ALL SINNERS, not ALL
unbelievers will be removed from the earth at Christ's coming.
This is not just an "indication" this is absolute dogmatic truth
that all the prophetic books of the Bible teach - Keith Hunt)
Yet they also teach that children will be born to believers
during the millennium and that these children will be capable of
sin (see Isaiah 65:20; Revelation 20:7-10). This would not be
possible if all the believers on earth were glorified through a
posttribulational rapture.
(Again, Lahaye and Hindson have things mixed up, and little
understanding of Bible prophecy. At the return of Christ all past
and living saints will be in that first resurrection to
immortality. But physical people will STILL be on earth [as I
prove in many studies on this website] - they, most of them, in
time will be converted, they will become believers. They will still
be physical. They will marry and have children. Physical
believers will continue to reproduce and have children. And yes
sin can still be done, if a person chooses to sin. God will never
make humans into robots - free moral will, will still be in each
physical human during that 1,000 year age. All this is fully
expounded upon in my many studies on the age to come - Keith
Hunt)
A posttribulational rapture and the church's supposed immediate
return to earth leaves no time for the "bema" - the judgment seat
of Christ (1 Corinthians 3:10-15; 2 Corinthians 5:10). For these
reasons, a posttribulational rapture makes no logical sense. A
pretribulational rapture, by contrast, does not leave us with
these insurmountable difficulties.
(There are no difficulties as Lahaye and Hindson would like you
to believe. The judgment seat of Christ is when the saints stand
before Christ on the sea of glass, when He returns, when the
resurrection takes place, after the great tribulation and day of
the Lord, after the 6 trumpets blow, and when the last and 7th
trumpet blows. Seven trumpets only are given in the book of
Revelation - the 7th is the resurrection to immortality for the
dead and living saints of God. They meet Christ in the air, in the
clouds, on the sea of glass. The judgment day for them has
arrived. They are before Christ and receive their rewards
according to their works. The "judgment seat of Christ" or
"Judgment Day" is also NOT understood by Lahaye and Hindson and
Catholicism and Protestantism. You need to study my study "The
Truth about Judgment Day" on this website - Keith Hunt)
The Tribulation Is Not Impending
All through the New Testament epistles, God gave many
instructions to the church, including warnings, but never once
are believers warned to prepare for entering and enduring the
Tribulation (Daniel's seventieth week).
(Whatttt.... I get blown-away by the silly ideas and the obvious
silly reading of the Bible by these fundamental prophets. They
just have to read Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; as a child [I
used to read those chapters over and over again as a child] but
child reading is far from them. I knew as a child that Jesus in
the Gospels, gave warnings to be prepared for persecutions to
come on Christians, then, today, and tomorrow. It is all over the
New Testament. We are to endure trials, persecutions; we are to
fight the good fight; we are to remain faithful to the end; we
are to put on the whole armor of God to withstand the wiles of
the Devil; we are to be willing to die for the truth; we are to
stand up and be counted; we are to remember as Jesus said, "They
who kill you will think they do God service." The truth about
Daniel's 70th week is also on this website in detail. It is NOT
what the fundamental prophets teach - Keith Hunt)
The New Testament warns vigorously about coming error and false
prophets (Acts 20:29-30; 2 Peter 2:1;1 John 4:1-3; Jude 4) and
against ungodly living (Ephesians 4:25-5:7; 1 Thessalonians
4:3-8; Hebrews 12:1). The New Testament even admonishes believers
to endure in the midst of present tribulation (i Thessalonians
2:13-14; 2 Thessalonians 1:4; and all of 1 Peter). However, the
New Testament is absolutely silent about the church preparing for
the Tribulation as described in Revelation 6-18.
(They think it is silent but it is not, for the NT it is just an
expected thing in life, life at the end time. Revelation 12 - the
story of the true Church of God. Like other ages in history,
there comes persecution, along with it comes death for some
Christians, and others are spared. It has been this way from the
beginning of human time. It is this way today. Some Christians in
some countries face death for being Christians, some do die, some
do not. Tomorrow will be the same - some will have to die for the
faith once delivered to the saints, some will be spared, they
will live on. So it has always been - see Hebrews 11. So it shall
be to the end of this age. Revelation 12 and the true Church of
God - some will die for the faith during the last years of this
age, some will escape to the wilderness and live on right to the
coming of Christ, those are the ones whom Paul says will be
changed in a twinkle of an eye at Jesus' coming, from mortal to
immortal - Keith Hunt)
The Scriptures would certainly not be silent about such a major
and traumatic period of time for the church. If the rapture were
to happen partway through or at the end of the Tribulation, one
would expect the epistles to teach the presence, purpose, and
conduct of the church during the Tribulation. However, we find
none of this teaching whatsoever. Only a pretribulation rapture
satisfactorily explains the lack of such instructions.
(Garbage to Lahaye and Hindson comments - the more I read these
fundamental prophets the angrier I get. Nothing could be further
from the truth. But people do not want the truth, they want nice
sweet words to comfort them, put them to sleep, and so the
fundamental prophets give them those word, and probably
themselves also, for most of them, do not want to think they have
to stiffen their back-bone, stand up to be counted, put their
life on the line, even have to die for the truth. So a nice
secret rapture to take you to heaven and restful bliss for 7
years, while the world falls apart, blows itself to bits, and all
kinds of horrible things go on in a tribulation that Jesus said
would be the greatest tribulation to ever come on earth in human
history. The Bible gives examples after examples, teaching after
teaching, both Old and New Testament, that persecutions and even
death have come upon God's people at times, sometimes more often,
sometimes not as often. In the end time, the last 42 months, 1260
days [book of Revelation] God's true Church will again experience
persecutions unto death for some, and escape into the wilderness
for others. All expounded for you in detail in many studies on
this website including the book of Revelation under "The New
Testament Bible Story" - Keith Hunt)
The Content of 1 Thessalonians 4:73-78 Let us hypothetically
suppose for a moment that the rapture is not pretribulational.
What would we expect to find in 1 Thessalonians 4? How does this
compare with what we observe there?
We would expect the Thessalonians to be joyous over the fact that
loved ones are home with the Lord and will not have to endure the
horrors of the Tribulation. But we discover that the
Thessalonians are actually grieving because they fear their loved
ones have missed the rapture. Only the possibility of a
pretribulation rapture accounts for this grief.
(Paul in 1 Thes. 4:13-18 is answering the sorrow and IGNORANCE
that some had in their mind, about those who had fallen asleep in
death. Many of his readers did not know the truths of God on this
matter. They were thinking and acting like the world - no hope in
death. Paul is having to help them, correct them, give them true
instruction about death. Obviously many did not know the answer
to death. There was no fear that their loved ones have missed the
rapture. They were IGNORANT about the "death question" - they did
not know, had to be instructed, in the death question. The world,
as many today say, there is nothing after death, no hope of some
life after death, so live to the fullest now, wine, women, and
song.
This passage of Paul has nothing to do with some "secret rapture"
or any "rapture" per se. It has to do with Paul having to
instruct some who did not know about death and the plan of God.
He had to tell them there was hope, it was not like the world
viewed death, BECAUSE God would have a RESURRECTION BACK TO LIFE
FOR ALL SAINTS, DEAD OR ALIVE, AND IT WOULD BE WITH A TRUMP, AND
THE AT CHRIST'S COMING; THE SAINTS DEAD OR ALIVE WOULD MEET
CHRIST IN THE AIR, THE CLOUDS, AND BE WITH HIM FOREVER - Keith
Hunt)
We would also expect the Thessalonians to be grieving over their
own impending trial rather than over loved ones. Furthermore, we
would expect them to be inquisitive about their own future doom.
But the Thessalonians have no fears or questions about the coming
Tribulation.
(Well that is simple to answer. They had no fear or questions
about any coming tribulation, for they knew as Christians,
tribulation may very well come. I mean Paul was a great example
for them. They would see what Paul at times had to go through in
persecution and tribulation. They had known Stephen had been
killed for speaking the truth. They had known James and probably
others as we see in the book of Acts, were persecuted and even
killed. Going through tribulation was not a question with them,
of course not. For such was to be expected at times. Tribulation
for the faith of Christ was all around them, some persecuted even
unto death, others not. They had the apostle John, who seemed to
be free from any large tribulation, and as the century went on,
John lived to a ripe old age, while others like Paul and Peter
were killed for the faith. They had the words of Christ, that
persecution could come on you if you followed Him. Even Jesus
saying some who would kill you would think they were doing God a
service. They had no fear or questions about coming tribulations
because they did know the answer to that question - it could
come, and they could die for the faith, while others would live
on - Keith Hunt)
Finally, we would expect Paul, even in the absence of interest or
questions by the Thessalonians, to provide instructions and
exhortation for such a supreme test, which would make their
present tribulation seem microscopic in comparison. But we find
not even one indication of any impending tribulation of this
kind. Given the scenario in 1 Thessalonians 4, only the
possibility of a pretribulation rapture makes sense.
(Nope wrong again for Lahaye and Hindson. They knew the answer to
tribulation, small or great. It could come, small or great, short
or long. They had examples in the Old Testament of God's saints
under persecution, even to death - Hebrews 11. They had Paul's example
of many persecutions, perils, stonings, beatings, and some saints who had
already been put to death for Christ. They very well knew the answer
to tribulations. No need to ask Paul about it, or to be ignorant about
that issue - Keith Hunt)
John 14.1-3 Parallels 1 Thessalonians 4.73-78
John 14:1-3 refers to Christ's coming again. It is not a promise
to all believers that they will go to Him at death. Rather, it
refers to the rapture of the church. Note the close parallels
between the promises of John 14:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.
First, consider the promises of a presence with Christ: "... that
where I am, there you may be also" (John 14:3), and "Thus we
shall always be with the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:17). Second,
note the promises of comfort: "Let not your heart be troubled"
(John 14:1), and "Therefore comfort one another with these words"
(I Thessalonians 4:18).
(Okay all good so far in the phrases picked out - Keith Hunt)
Jesus instructed the disciples that He was going to His Father's
house (heaven) to prepare a place for them. He promised them that
He would return and receive them so that they could be with Him
wherever He was.
The phrase "wherever I am," while implying a continued presence
in general, here means presence in heaven in particular.
(Now Lahaye and Hindson start to go off track - "where I am" they
say "here means presence in heaven in particular." Now you try to
find the word "heaven" in this passage under discussion. Nope it
ain't there. It is someone reading into it what they want you to
read into it. They want to get this teaching of their's into your
mind, so they put words in the passage that are not there. They
pretty well know, most, the majority, of their readers look to
them for understanding the Bible [as most readers do little if
any Bible research for themselves]. They know most of their readers
stand in "awe" of them, so it is easy for them to "lead you down
the garden path." They tell you John is writing here that Jesus
meant you are going to heaven, even if Jesus did not say that at
all; they want you to believe it is most definitely implied -
Keith Hunt)
Our Lord told the Pharisees in John 7:34, "Where I am you cannot
come." He was not talking about His present abode on earth, but
rather, His resurrected presence at the right hand of the Father.
In John 14:3, "where I am" must mean "in heaven," or 14:1-3 would
be meaningless.
(The first one is correct as they put it. But now they want you
to hook John 14:1-3 with the first one they mention. But the
Bible has a context to all verses. And the Bible must interpret
itself. If Jesus had and wanted His followers to clearly know
that they would one day "get to heaven to be with him" it would
have been very easy for Jesus to have said, "Where I am in
heaven" or "Where I am you also will be with me in heaven."
Jesus said no such words. Now the fundamental people and just
about all Christianity teach that SOMEDAY you will "get to
heaven" - they may vary on the WHEN, but they all teach, one day
Christians will get to heaven, even the seventh Day Adventists
teach it. So again reading into this verse that this is what Jesus
was teaching, makes sense to them, for they all believe one day
Christians will be with Christ in heaven.
Stop and think now, what if the religious Jews of Jesus' day did
not think about heaven as you going there, at death [if your a
good Jew or Christian] or think about it in the way Christians
today think about it .... just got to be there. What if many or
most of the religious Jews believed death was death, and only a
resurrection by God could bring you back to life. And what if
those Jews [and Christians] knew the Messiah would come and set
up a Kingdom over the nations of the earth, live on earth, rule
from Jerusalem. And what if with that idea in mind they knew the
resurrection would take place at the Messiah's coming, and so
they would be with Him on earth, via a resurrection from death.
Now if all that was so with the religious Jews and Christians of
the first century, then the words of Jesus saying He would go and
prepare a place for them, come again, receive them, and wherever
He was they would be also, would be taken quite differently.
Well I submit to you, those words by Jesus would NOT be taken as
Christians today want to take them.
And we also then must let the Bible interpret the Bible. Jesus
certainly taught He would come again, and His followers when He
came would be with Him. So when Jesus comes again, when His
people are with Him, where does He go? The answer is found in
Zechariah 14. Notice the words "in that day" and "mount of
Olives." And note verse 7 and Jesus saying in the Gospels that
only the Father new the day of Christ's return.
It should all start to jell with you by now, if you have your
Bible open and ARE seeing the words for yourself - Keith Hunt)
A posttribulation rapture would require that the saints meet
Christ in the air and immediately descend to earth without
experiencing what our Lord promised in John 14. Because John 14
refers to the rapture, only a pretribulation rapture satisfies
the language of John 14:1-3 and allows raptured saints to dwell
for a meaningful period of time with Christ in His Father's
house.
(I have answered John 14:1-3 in another study on this website,
but I'm also answering it here. John 14:1-3 has nothing to do
about "going to heaven" - the word "heaven" is not there. As
shocking as it may sound, the Bible nowhere promises that
Christians will "get to heaven" or "be with Christ in heaven" or
"sit in heaven with the Father" - that is the heaven where the
Father and Jesus now live. The fundamental prophets do teach that
Jesus will rule the earth and the nations upon it for 1,000
years. They, or most of them now, from what I read in their
literature, do teach the new heaven and new earth, and God the
Father coming to the new earth. But ... but, and this seems
desperately important to them, somehow Christians have to get to
heaven. If it's not at death [many of them now know the immortal
soul idea has much difficulties] then they say, "when can we get
this going to heaven in?" Ah, they will as Lahaye and Hindson
have done "get going to heaven" in with a pre-tribulation, secret
rapture teaching. At least they say you can get to heaven for 7
years - Keith Hunt)
The Rapture and the Return
A comparison of the rapture (1 Corinthians 15:50-58; 1
Thessalonians 4:13-IS) with the glorious appearing (Matthew
24-25) reveals at least eight significant contrasts or
differences. These differences demand that the rapture occur at a
significantly different time from Christ's glorious appearing:
(Oh it does? Well we shall see, we'll look at what they say -
Keith Hunt)
1. At the rapture, Christ comes in the air and returns to heaven
(1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the glorious appearing, Christ comes
to the earth to dwell and reign (Matthew 25:31-32).
(Nope 1 Thes.4:17 does not say Christ returns to heaven. You have
to read that into the passage. It says we meet Him in the air,
the clouds, and we stay with Him. Where He goes from there you
have to let other verses tell you - again Zech.14. The glorious
coming, which is NOT a separate phase of two phases of His
coming, Jesus does indeed return to earth - Zech.14 again - Keith
Hunt)
2. At the rapture, Christ gathers His own (1 Thessalonians
4:16-17). At the glorious appearing, angels gather the elect
(Matthew 24:31).
(Bible semantics. One verse tells you it is Christ gathering,
another verse tells you HOW Christ will gather. By the authority
of Christ, the angels go forth to gather, in so doing it is also
Christ that gathers. The Bible is full of such talk, one verse
putting it this way, and another verse making to plain or in more
detail, as to how the other verse is carried out - Keith Hunt)
3. At the rapture, Christ comes to reward (I Thessalonians 4:17).
At the glorious appearing, Christ comes to judge (Matthew
25:31-46).
(Again, grasping at straws. Many events take place at the coming
in glory of Christ the Messiah. Breaking it up can be easy to do
IF you have a reason for doing it, and the fundamental prophets
with their secret rapture, 7 years in heaven for the saints, have
one huge reason to break things up and put them in an order the
Bible does not put them. Many things take place when the Messiah
comes. If you read my expounding of all the prophetic books of
the Bible on this website, you will come to see MANY things take
place at the return of Christ. Pouring out the seven last
plagues, hailstones, battle of Armageddon, resurrection of the
saints, rewards handed out, judgment on the Beast power, judgment
on the beast man and the false prophet and etc. to name a few -
Keith Hunt)
4. The rapture, resurrection is prominent (1 Thessalonians
4:15-16). At the glorious appearing, resurrection is not
mentioned.
(God does not have to mention the same things in the same
context, but in different passages. He is not obliged to follow
the arguments of Lahaye and Hindson on this point. God is God. He
sets the rules by which He desires to write. What is mentioned in
one passage about the same event, does not have to be exactly the
same things mentioned in another passage about the same event.
This kind of argument makes people say, "Well you can prove
anything by the Bible" and so the skeptic walks on thumbing their
nose at God and the Bible and people who prove anything from the
Bible - Keith Hunt)
5. At the rapture, believers depart the earth (1 Thessalonians
4:15-17). At the glorious appearing, unbelievers are taken away
from the earth (Matthew 24:37-41).
(Of course at the resurrection saints are raised from the dead,
living saints are changed, all leave the earth to meet Christ in
the air, in the clouds. Matthew 24:37-41 is completely
misunderstood by Lahaye and Hindson. I have expounded this
passage fully in other studies on this website, under prophecy.
Briefly: the context is the day of Christ's return verse 36. The
world will not expect it, just as they were not expecting the
flood of Noah's day. It is the day of Christ's return. Saints
will be on this earth, as I've proved in other studies. They will
be here and there. Some will be converted during the great
tribulation and day of the Lord; the book of Revelation says 144,000
from the tribes of Israel - Rev.7. Some will be around the un-
converted. The converted saints will, on the day of Christ's
coming, literally yes, disappear from view. Of course they will
because they will be in the resurrection and taken by the angels
to be with Christ in the air, in the clouds, upon the sea of
glass - Keith Hunt)
6. At the rapture, unbelievers remain on earth. At the glorious
appearing, believers remain on earth (Matthew 25:34).
(At the ONE event of Jesus' return, yes un-believers will be on
earth. Jesus is coming back to rule the physical nations of the
earth. At the same ONE event believers will be on earth, as many
in that day when they see Jesus return will believe, many will
know Christ does exist; many will come to repentance on that day.
And from then on the sheep and goats will be divided. All
expounded in-depth as I go through each prophetic book of the
Bible on this website - Keith Hunt)
7. Christ's kingdom on earth is not mentioned at the rapture. At
the glorious appearing, Christ has come to set up His kingdom on
earth (Matthew 25:31,34).
(Again, the same silly argument of Lahaye and Hindson. God does
not have to write the same thing the same way, mentioning the
same things, when writing about the same event. One aspect of the
same event can be mentioned in one passage, and another aspect of
the same event mentioned in another passage. My oh my, what a
silly argument - Keith Hunt)
8. At the rapture, believers will receive glorified bodies (1
Corinthians 15:51-57). At the glorious appearing, survivors will
not receive glorified bodies.
(Of course this is so. Very simple. At the resurrection saints
will be glorified, made immortal, raised from death to
immortality, or changed from flesh and blood to immortality.
Those who survive the last years of this age, who are not chosen
to be saints and to be made immortal at Christ's coming, like about
10 percent of the people of the tribes of Israel, will go on into
the 1,000 years as physical people. Jesus and the saints will
rule over physical people in literal nations of the earth. Again
all expounded for you in detail as I reveal to you what all the
prophetic books of the Bible teach - Keith Hunt)
The Promise of Deliverance
In Revelation 3:10, Jesus promised, "I will keep you from [Greek,
ek, "out of"] the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole
world." This passage makes it clear that Christ's intention is to
keep the church out of the Tribulation period.
(Nope. The passage it to a "church group" only, see the context
of other church groups in Revelation 2 and 3. Revelation 12 gives
you the "rest of the story" as the late Paul Harvey wouls say on his
radio program. It will be as it has always been in all
history - some of God's children will escape persecution and
tribulation and death, in the wilderness, and other children of
God will have to stand up and be counted, be a witness for the
truth, and even have to die for the truth of God. So it has
always been, so it will be again at the end time - Keith hunt)
The Greek preposition "ek" admittedly has the basic idea of
emergence. But this is not always so. Two notable examples are 2
Corinthians 1:10 and 1 Thessalonians 1:10. In the Corinthian
passage, Paul rehearses his rescue from death by God. Paul did
not emerge from death but rather was rescued from the potential
danger of death.
Even more convincing is 1 Thessalonians 1:10. Here, Paul states
that Jesus is rescuing believers out of the wrath to come. The
idea is not emergence out of, but rather protection from entrance
into divine wrath.
(Even so, using the Greek, does not change the fact that
Revelation 3:10 is about ONE GROUP of people to be spared from
persecution and death of the Great Tribulation, just as
Revelation 12 pictures and tells us - Keith Hunt)
If Revelation 3:10 means immunity or protection within as other
positions insist, then several contradictions result. First, if
protection in Revelation 3:10 is limited to protection from God's
wrath only and not Satan's, then Revelation 3:10 denies our
Lord's request in John 17:15.
(Revelation 3:10 is protection from Satan's wrath as well as
protection all the way through the last 42 months of this age -
the great tribulation and the day of the Lord - Keith Hunt)
Second, if Revelation 3:10 means total immunity, then of what
worth is the promise in light of Revelation 6:9-11 and 7:14,
where martyrs abound? The wholesale martyrdom of saints during
the Tribulation demands that the promise to the Philadelphia
church be interpreted as "keeping out of" the hour of testing,
not "keeping within."
(Keeping out of the hour of testing, is keeping out of, and not
within. For Revelation 12 tells you HOW the keeping out of is to
be done - fleeing to the wilderness, by part of the true people
of God, NOT by some "secret rapture" that takes you to heaven.
Oh the lack of reading all the Bible, even all the passages on
any given subject, even all of a book. Such sloppy reading of the
Bible, gives sloppy theology that deceives millions - Keith Hunt)
The church is to be delivered from the wrath to come. The apostle
Paul tells us in 1 Thessalonians 1:10 that we should "wait for
His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who
delivers us from the wrath to come."
The context of this passage points to the rapture. The church
must be removed from the earth before the Tribulation begins in
order to be delivered from the wrath to come.
(Again, total garbage. The context is no such thing as Lahaye and
Hindson say. Look at it yourselves. Open your Bible. See it for
yourselves. Note verse 3 - work of faith, labor of love. Note
verse 6 - followers of us, and of the LORD. Note verse 8 - from
you sound out the word of the Lord .... in every place your faith
to God-ward is spread abroad. Go into chapter 2. It is all to do
with serving the Lord, in truth and life, and NOTHING TO DO WITH
THE RAPTURE OR RESURRECTION.
LIVING IN THE LORD MEANS WE WILL NOT COME INTO THE WRATH OF THE
LORD VIA CONDEMNATION AND THE SECOND DEATH!! Keith Hunt)
The church is not appointed to wrath. According to 1
Thessalonians 5:9, "God did not appoint us to wrath, but to
obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." Once again, the
context of this passage shows it is referring to the rapture.
(The context is NOT referring to the rapture or resurrection per
se.
If you want to get real technical the context starts with "the
DAY OF THE LORD" verse 2. The day of the Lord is NOT the great
tribulation, but Lahaye and Hindson have no clue about
understanding Bible prophecy. So the day of the Lord is the last
day (day for a year in prophecy) - last year of this age. And so
Christians living at that time, by being in the light, watching
soberly, not as those in the night, spiritual darkness, but
putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet,
the hope of salvation - looking at the verses following. For we
need to do this because God does not want us to face wrath, but
salvation. In so doing we can live together with Him. Yes finally
a resurrection to eternal life with Christ.
Two things: So living we escape the day of the Lord that it does
not come on us as those in darkness, for it will bring sudden
destruction. This applies to those who are alive at the time of
the day of the Lord. Second, and more important, living in the
Lord, means we find salvation and not His wrath in condemnation
and the second death - Keith Hunt)
Because the Tribulation specifically involves God's wrath, and
because Christians are not appointed to His wrath, the church
must be raptured out of the way before the Tribulation begins.
(No the Scriptures say the Great Tribulation is Satan's wrath on
the earth, especially he will go after the true Church of God. See
Revelation 12. Some will escape his wrath, and find safety in the
wilderness. Others of the true church will have to stand up and be
counted, they will have to be witnesses for the truth, and even die
for the faith once delivered to the saints - Revelation 12 - Keith
Hunt)
If the church is raptured at the end of the Tribulation, no one
will be left to populate the millennium.
(What absolute crazy Bible reading these two guys have between
them. I'm just about lost for words at their total ignorance of
the prophetic books of the Bible. The resurrection of the saints
of God, yes after the great tribulation and the day of the Lord,
means only that true saints are made immortal; the rest of the
physical people on earth, left alive after the battle of
Armageddon, the 10 percent of physical Israelites, they go on
into the millennium, the 1,000 year age, as physical people, and
continue to populate the earth - Keith Hunt)
Just prior to the beginning of the millennium, all sinners (those
who reject Jesus Christ as Savior) who survive the Tribulation
will be cast into hell according to Matthew 25:46.
(Again a full misunderstanding of Matthew 25:46 - this parable is
AFTER Jesus has returned, when sitting on the throne of David.
The goats are not thrown into the lake of fire, the second death,
until the end of the 1,000 year age. All explained in detail in
many other studies on prophecy on this website - Keith Hunt)
Should the rapture occur at the end of the Tribulation, all
Christians would be taken from the earth as well, leaving no one
on earth with a natural body to repopulate the planet during the
millennium.
(Gross error! Not all who will believe in that day, the day of
Christ's return, when thousands will see Him come in the clouds
of heaven, will be in the first resurrection. They may well
believe Jesus has come again, as like about 10 percent of
Israelites, but that will not qualify them to be in the first
resurrection. Hence tens of thousands will still remain as
physical humans. And not only that but thousands of un-believers
will survive and we have the prophecy of Ezekiel 38 and 39
coming to pass. There is so much on this, you will need to study
my expounding of all the prophetic books of the Bible, to
understand it all in detail - Keith Hunt)
The "righteous" (the "sheep") who enter the millennium are the
saints who survive the Tribulation - those who were unsaved at
the time of the rapture but became believers during the
Tribulation.
(Garbage theology here also. The sheep of Matthew 25 are those
who accept Christ AFTER His return, when He sits on the throne of
David to judge the nations, to start to divide the sheep from the
goats - they are physical human beings - Keith Hunt)
Many of these saints will be martyred during this time, but those
who survive the Tribulation will repopulate the earth during the
millennium. For this to occur, the rapture must take place prior
to the Tribulation instead of at the end.
(All silly nonsense. Those saints who live during the great
tribulation and day of the Lord, will have qualified to be in the
first resurrection. As Jesus gave in one parable, some toil all
day [many years of their life - decades maybe] and some toil at the
11th hour - for a relatively short while, 42 months at the end of
this age, or a little less if called during the great tribulation,
is a short time, an 11th hour. But Jesus went on to say, they all
received the penny wage as did those who toiled for a
long time - they all get salvation - Keith Hunt)
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
1. Since the phrase "to meet the Lord" in 1 Thessalonians 4.17
can refer to a friendly city going out to meet the visiting king
and escorting him back to the city, does not this phrase point
decidedly to a posttribulational rapture?
First, this Greek term can refer to either meeting within a city
(Mark 14:13; Luke 17:12) or going out of the city to meet and
return back (Matthew 25:6; Acts 28:15). So the use of this
particular phrase is not at all decisive. Second, remember that
at the glorious appearing, Christ is coming to a hostile people
in general who will eventually fight against Him at Armageddon.
The pretribulational rapture best pictures the king rescuing, by
a rapture, His faithful followers who are trapped in a hostile
world and who will later accompany Him when He returns to earth
to conquer His enemies and set up His kingdom (Revelation
19:11-16).
(The truth is not ascertained by saying this fits a better
scenario than this other. 1 Thes. 4 and the context of verse 17
is to be put with 1 Cor.15 and many other verses, which I've already
done here and in many other studies on the subject - Keith Hunt)
2. Why does Paul write in 1 Thessalonians 5:6 for believers to be
alert to "the day of the Lord" if they're not going to face it
due to being raptured before the Tribulation?
Paul exhorts believers in 1 Thessalonians 5:6 to be alert and
living godly in a "day of the Lord" context just as Peter does in
2 Peter 3:14-15, where the "day of the Lord" experience is
clearly at the end of the millennium (because the old heavens and
earth will be destroyed and replaced with the new). In such
passages are exhortations for true believers to live godly lives
in the light of God's future judgment on unbelievers.
(Well for once the guys have a truth. Some verses are for people
down the passage of time, and for a generality for all Christians
for all ages, and so they do not come into the condemnation of the
wrath of God when the second death in the lake of fire takes
place - Keith Hunt)
3. Does not Matthew 24:37-42, where people are taken out of the
world, teach a posttribulational rapture?
In fact, Matthew 24:37-42 teaches just the opposite. First, it
teaches that Noah and his family were left alive while the whole
world was taken away in death and judgment. This is exactly the
sequence to be expected at Christ's glorious appearing as taught
in the parable of the wheat and tares (Matthew 13:24-43), the
parable of the dragnet (Matthew 13:47-50), and the "sheep and
goats" judgment of the nations (Matthew 25:31-46). In every one
of these instances, at the glorious appearing, unbelievers are
taken away in judgment, and the righteous believers remain.
(Noah and his example is given by Jesus not to teach the wicked
with remain while believers disappear. It is given in the
context, yes context again, of "unexpected" - "unknown" - see
verse 36. Life was going on quite normal in the days of Noah,
Jesus gives examples of normal life of that time. It was so, right
up to the time of the flood, that came UNEXPECTED. The whole section
is to do with not knowing the day of Christ's return, only the Father,
and to watch the signs Jesus has given in the whole chapter, so
that day does not come UNEXPECTEDLY on Christians. For when it
does come the resurrection will take place and true Christians
will disappear to be with the Lord, verses 40-42. The Lord does
not come until AFTER the great tribulation and the day of the
Lord - Keith Hunt)
4. Does not a pretribulation rapture result in two second comings
of Christ, whereas Scripture teaches there is only one second
coming?
Not at all. Regardless of the rapture position one holds,
Christ's second coming is one event that occurs in two parts -
Christ coming in the air to rapture the church and Christ coming
to earth to conquer the world and set up His kingdom.
(Have you ever heard of such SILLY AND FROM PLANET PLUTO
reasonings? They tell us Christ's second coming is ONE EVENT,
then go on to say the one event has TWO PARTS. Now when you
understand as shown by them, that the two parts have 7 years
between them .... I mean, give me a break, one event with a
secret and visible two parts with 7 years in-between. This has
got to be one of the stupidest human reasonings in Christian
theology - Keith Hunt)
5. If pretribulationism is true, why doesn't Revelation 4-19
mention the church in heaven?
It is true that the Greek word for church (ekklesia) is not used
of the church in heaven in Revelation 4-19. However, that does
not mean the church is invisible. The church appears in heaven at
least twice. First, the 24 elders in Revelation 4-5 symbolize the
church.
(Come on now, wow, what more silly reasoning - the 24 elders
symbolize the church. Give me another break! There is nothing in
the entire Bible to acquaint the 24 elders in heaven as
symbolizing the Church of God being in heaven - grasping at straws
they are - Keith Hunt)
Second, the phrase "you saints and apostles and prophets" in
Revelation 18:20 clearly refers to the church in heaven.
(Once more, this is getting so silly they should go on Canada's
TV show called "Just for Laughs." Jesus is writing (He's the
author of Revelation, see the beginning of chapter one) that yes the
heaven needs to rejoice over the obliteration of Babylon, but
also the apostles and prophets... It does NOT say the apostles
and prophets are in heaven. Again that has to be read into it, and if
you believe in the immortality of the soul and the secret rapture
idea, then you will read into this verse what these two guys have
done, to hold your teaching of a secret rapture with saints in
heaven for 7 years before Jesus returns visibly - Keith Hunt)
Also, Revelation 19 pictures the church (the bride of Christ) in
heaven prior to her triumphal return. Which rapture scenario best
accounts for the church being in heaven in these texts at this
time? A pretribulation rapture.
(The chapter does begin with a scene in heaven. But when we get
to the "Lord God omnipotent reigns" verse 6, we have come to the
Lord reigning, simple as that, right, yes pretty simple. The Lord
now reigns. When does the Lord reign? When He returns to earth.
His wife has made herself ready - white garments she has, that are the
righteousness of the saints, verses 7,8, and see Ps.119:172. When do
the saints get to be with Christ? We have seen at the LAST trumpet sound.
The resurrection takes place. They rise to meet Jesus in the air, in
the clouds - 1 Thes.4:13-17. The bride and the Groom are together;
the marriage of the Lamb to the bride, the saints, takes place.
Where? When they come together, as most human marriages do the same.
They come together in the clouds of the air of this planet. This is NOT
in heaven but in the atmosphere of this earth. Simple when you put
Scripture with Scripture - Keith Hunt)
6. Why is Revelation addressed to the church if the church will
not experience the Tribulation period due to the rapture?
These texts cannot be used to determine the time of the rapture.
One of the chief characteristics of the rapture is that it will
be sudden, unexpected, and surprising. "No man knows the day or
the hour," so we should live so as to "be ready, for the Son of
Man is coming at an hour you do not expect" (Matthew 24:44). Only
a pretribulation rapture preserves an imminent ("at any moment")
return of Christ.
(While no man knows the day not the hour of Jesus' return, only
the Father. Jesus in the Gospels and in the book of Revelation,
gives us signs upon signs as to what to watch for, leading up to the
day of His return. The idea of an "imminent" - "any moment"
return of Christ, is absolutely against all the signs and waymarks
Jesus Himself has given us. The idea that Jesus can return at any
second, is totally false, and not taught anywhere in the Bible.
Only those teaching a secret rapture can hold this "any second"
return for Jesus. The Bible holds no such view.
I very dogmatically will tell you that Jesus CANNOT return until
certain prophecies have taken place - certain signs He gave MUST
COME TO PASS before He can return - Keith Hunt)
Throughout the ages, Christians have understood the rapture to be
imminent. Nothing could be a better motivator to holy living than
knowing that Jesus could come at any moment.
(If it takes the idea that Christ can come at any minute or
second, to make you live a holy life, to serve the Lord, to love
the Lord with all your heart, life and mind, then YOUR CHRISTIAN
RELIGION I MUST QUESTION - Keith Hunt)
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