A GOOD FEAST OF TABERNACLES STUDY------
Christ's Coming in TWO parts?
I ANSWER: TWO OF THE MOST POPULAR AND WELL-KNOWN PROTESTANT PROPHETS - TIM LAHAYE AND ED HINDSON, HAVE GIVEN A LENGTHY EXPLANATION TO THE FUNDAMENTAL CHRISTIAN TEACHING EMBRACED BY THEIR FOLLOWERS, ON THE "RAPTURE." WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT "RAPTURE" TO THEM MEANS "RESURRECTION" BUT HOW THEY PUT THIS RESURRECTION TRUTH OF THE BIBLE TOGETHER WITH CHRIST'S COMING ..... WELLLLLL THAT IS A DIFFERENT MATTER ALTOGETHER. THIS IS A SOMEWHAT LONG STUDY, BUT I NEED TO ANSWER THESE FUNDAMENTAL GUYS SO YOU THE READER CAN SEE THE FOLLY OF AND THE DECEPTIVE WAY THEY THINK AND CANNOT PUT SCRIPTURE WITH SCRIPTURE, TO ASCERTAIN THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER. WE START WITH LAHAYE AND HINDSON - Keith Hunt ...... THE RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH is one of the most compelling and exciting prophetic events in the Bible. It is clearly taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 (NKJV), where the apostle Paul provides us with these details: This we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. This passage of Scripture delineates five stages to the rapture: (Remember now "rapture" is here understood as "resurrection" - which is true - Keith Hunt) (1) The Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout and with the sound of a trumpet, (2) the dead in Christ will rise first, (3) we who are alive and remain on the earth will be "caught up" (Greek, "harpazo") together with them in the clouds, (4) we will meet the Lord, and (5) we shall always be with Him. (So far so good - the 5 points are indeed what 1 Thes.4:15-18 cover - Keith Hunt) The apostle Paul also unveiled what he called a mystery pertaining to the rapture. In 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, He explained that some Christians would not sleep (die), but their bodies would be instantly transformed. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. (Correct so far. The resurrection to eternal life takes place at the LAST trumpet! Notice it, mark it "last trumpet." So there is then more than one trumpet sound. The book of Revelation gives us 7 trumpers - Keith Hunt) This is what will happen when the rapture rakes place: Without warning, the bodies of all believers who have died since the day of Pentecost will suddenly be transformed into new, living, immortal, resurrected bodies. Even those whose bodies have long since decayed or whose ashes have been scattered out over the oceans will receive a new body. This new body will be joined together with the person's spirit, which Jesus will bring with Him. Then the bodies of those who have likewise accepted Christ as their Savior and are alive at that moment will also be instantly translated into new immortal bodies. Together, all believers will be instantaneously transported into the heavens to meet the Lord. Those who are alive and have rejected the salvation of Jesus Christ will remain behind on earth and will witness a miraculous event of astonishing proportions - the sudden mass disappearance of millions upon millions of people from the face of the earth. (Now we start into their truth and error. First, it is not only those since Pentecost who will be in this resurrection. It will be ALL true saints or children of God since Adam. Many verses in the entire Bible prove EVERY child of God since Adam will be resurrected at the last trumpet. The Bible nowhere speaks of some OTHER resurrection at some OTHER time for those children in God, before the NT Pentecost. You search the Scriptures and see if you can find any such mention of another resurrection for saints from Adam to Pentecost. I'll give you one thousand dollars if you can find it. The idea that the unsaved will witness the disappearance of MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS from the earth, is another deceptive falsehood of the fundamental prophets. Their idea on this contradicts the plain teachings of Jesus, who said His "flock" would be the "little flock" (the Greek means "very little flock" - it's a double diminutive in the Greek); He also said His followers would be the "salt of the earth" - salt among the meal is very little, sprinkled here and there. According to Jesus in Matthew 24 it is the MANY who are deceived, in fact before He comes again He said deception would be so great that IF it possible even the elect would be deceived - Keith Hunt) THE BLESSED HOPE The rapture is often referred to as "the blessed hope" (Titus 2:13) because it provides assurance to believers who are concerned about the coming Tribulation, and it offers comfort to those who long to be reunited with their departed loved ones who share a faith in Christ. (Yes the resurrection is a "blessed hope" but now you try to find where this blessed hope of the resurrection is tied in with the coming "tribulation" - see if you can find "resurrection" and "tribulation" put together as resurrection from "the tribulation" is our hope. Just another slight of hand talk as if it is a fact that resurrection offers hope for those concerned about the coming tribulation. True the resurrection does offer comfort to be with other dead true saints of God, but again a slight of hand talk to sooth and dull your mind, as the truth is many of your loved ones may not have been true Christians at all, and will not be in this resurrection at the last trumpet sound. The slight of hand is the idea that the majority of "Christians" are true Christians, when in fact true Christians are the salt of the earth, and not the millions as they want you to believe - Keith Hunt) The more than 300 biblical references to the second coming of Christ clearly show that His return has two distinct phases. The contrasting elements cannot be merged into a single event (see the article titled "Second Coming of Christ"). (Notice the DOGMATIC claim about the 300 references to the second coming of Christ. They are very dogmatic that Jesus' return is in TWO PHASES, and cannot be merged into a single event. Now these two men are so "looked up to" in the fundamental Protestant world that most of their readers will say, "It has to be so, for these men are such giants of the Scriptures, such great leaders in the Christian fundamental world, they must be correct." And so tens or hundreds of thousands will accept their word as "gospel" as we say. AND do not think for one moment these two guys (Lahaye and Hindson) do not know this. They know their readers look to them with "awe" and "are spell-bound" with what they say and write. Those guys know their readers will accept what words come from them, with no questioning. Hence right at the beginning they have tranquilized their readers - they have them hooked as we say - Keith Hunt) In the first phase, He will come suddenly to rapture His church in the air and take all believers to His Father's house in fulfilment of His promise in John 14:1-3. There, they will appear before the judgment seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:8-10). (Now they move on after tranquilizing their readers, with more clever brain-washing, and throw in a few Scriptures. They tell their readers Jesus will come and take His believers to heaven and throw in John 14:1-3. Now turn to that passage, open up your Bible. See if you can find the word "heaven" in those 3 verses. Nope it ain't there! Heaven, going back to heaven, is not mentioned at all. All that Jesus says is He will come and receive His followers, and where He is in receiving them, "where I am" He says "there you may be also." Put that with 1 Thes. 4:13-17 [that Lahaye and Hindson have already given you] and the Bible interprets the Bible - the saints of God meet, receive Christ in the AIR, in the CLOUDS, and shall ever be with Him. But 1 Thes.4:13-17 does NOT tell you WHERE Christ will be after He has received the saints in the clouds, in the air. You must let OTHER verses of Scripture tell you that; letting the Bible interpret itself. Now concerning 2 Cor.5:8-10. Again see if you can find the word "heaven" or "Father's throne" or "in heaven" - nope it ain't there! Now you can find "present with the Lord." So the question you should be asking is "WHEN are we present with the Lord?" Even Lahaye and Hindson have given you that answer, as they gave you 1 Thes. 4:13-18 and 1 Cor.15:50-53 - at the LAST trumpet sound, when Jesus comes to receive the saints in the AIR, in the CLOUDS. SO, again with slight of hand, knowing their readers will lap up their words as "gospel" they take John 14:1-3 and 2 Cor.5:8-10 and TELL YOU it is all IN HEAVEN in the Father's house. I've show you in other studies that the Father's house is the Kingdom of God, which Jesus will bring with Him on His return, to set up the Kingdom of God on earth for the first 1,000 years. There is nothing in John 14:1-3 and 2 Cor.5:8-10 that says the saints GO BACK TO HEAVEN WHERE THE FATHER IS, after Jesus has received the saints in the CLOUDS, in the AIR of this earth. And to PROVE they do not, you let the Bible interpret the Bible. So you go to Zechariah 14 and there you CLEARLY see that in the day the Messiah Jesus returns, His feet stand on the Mount of Olives, and Jesus is Lord of all; the Kingdom of God has come to earth, as mentioned in dozens of passages in the Bible. OH the simplicity of the Bible when you let the Bible interpret itself - Keith Hunt) While the believers are in heaven, those left behind on the earth will experience the trials of the seven-year Tribulation period. (And once more Lahaye and Hindson just tell you what will then happen. They know they have their readers already under their spell. They know their readers are mainly Bible illiterates, people who never check up, never question, never search the Scriptures. They know their readers have already been brain- washed to accept millions [as they think] will escape the great tribulation, which is for 7 years - another brain-washing teaching that the fundamental prophets have seared into the minds of their followers. Lahaye and Hindson already know the idea of escaping via an invisible coming of Christ. The 7 year great tribulation, has already been accepted by hundreds of thousands of fundamental Christians, so they just tell the people what the people want to hear, what they have been brian-washed into accepting from these [and others] "great" and "awesome" teachers of fundamental Christianity. So they know it's easy to just say words, for they are speaking to "no-searchers of the Scriptures" to people who will not prove all things and hold to that which is good - Keith Hunt) In the second phase of Jesus' second coming (the glorious appearing), He will return to earth in great power and glory to set up His millennial kingdom. (And so we go again. Lahaye and Hindson, just continue with what they know the many they write to have accepted already, what many of their "minister friends" have taught for decades, what has been brain-washed into the minds of all their followers. They continue with the SECOND PHASE of the coming of Christ. After Jesus has gone back to heaven with the saints, for 7 years, He will come in phase two, in "glorious appearing" to set up the Kingdom of God on earth for the millennium or 1,000 years - Keith Hunt) The entire second coming has been compared to a two-act play (the rapture and the glorious appearing) with a seven-year intermission (the Tribulation). (Yep....indeed, so many fundamental prophets have taught this "two-act play" - taught it for decades, drubbed it into their hearers, their followers, branded it in their minds so deeply, their sheep just do not question it. Their sheep are asleep, and the fundamental prophets know it. They themselves are blinded, so the blind follow the blind. The blind continue to teach this idea of two phases of Christ's return with a 7 year tribulation in-between, and the blind followers keep following the blind teachers. So the blind teachers says words as if it is fact, and their blind followers believe the words as it is fact. So the circle continues - Keith Hunt) The apostle Paul distinguishes between these two phases in Titus 2:13, where he refers to the rapture as the "blessed hope" and the return of Christ to the earth as "the glorious appearing." (Whattttt.... to put the phrase "blessed hope" and "glorious appearing" - to interpret for you that this one verse is teaching a "two phase" return of Christ, with one phase as a "secret rapture" and another phase as a visible "glorious appearing" with 7 years tribulation between the two phases, IS PUTTING INTO THIS VERSE THINGS THAT ARE JUST NOT THERE PERIOD. No word "tribulation" is there. No word "phase" is there. No word "two" is there. No word "seven" or "years" or "heaven" is there. The hope and appearance can just as easily be Paul speaking about the SAME event - it is "the hope" and it is "the glorious appearing." The hope is the resurrection for the saints as 1 Cor. 15 shows. The glorious appearing is Jesus coming in glory. Putting 1 Cor.15 with 1 Thes.4:13-18 - letting the Bible interpret the Bible. Putting 1 Cor. 15 with 1 Thes.4:13-18 WITH Zechariah 14, YOU HAVE THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER! Then add Revelation 11:15-18 and add also Matthew 24:29-31 and you have more of the truth of the matter. I mean a child can put those verses together and add them up to ONE COMING of Christ [not a two-phased coming] that is BOTH a great hope and a great appearing. But again Lahaye and Hindson are writing to people who have been brain-washed for decades, who have accepted a two-phased coming of Christ, secret and glorious, with 7 years between them. Lahaye and Hindson are writing to themselves [and other minister friends] who are so brain-washed by this secret and open two- phased return of Jesus that to them Titus 2:13 is speaking about two phases with 7 years between the phases. They read into this verse exactly what they want to read into it, so the circle is unbroken - round and round it goes - Keith Hunt) WHAT DOES RAPTURE MEAN? The English word rapture comes from the Latin word "raptus," which in Latin Bibles translates the Greek word "harpazo," used 14 times in the New Testament. The basic idea of the word is "to suddenly remove or snatch away." It is used by the New Testament writers in reference to stealing or plundering (Matthew 11:12; 12:29; 13:19; John 10:12,28-29) and removing (John 6:15; Acts 8:39; 23:10; Jude 23). The New Testament employs a third use, which focuses on being caught up to heaven. It describes Paul's "third heaven" experience (2 Corinthians 12:2,4) and Christ's ascension to heaven (Revelation 12:5). Obviously, "harpazo" is the perfect word to describe God suddenly taking up the church from earth to heaven at the first part of Christ's second coming. (Now they start to add some technical stuff; oh this will really sound good and "scholarly" to their readers; the readers will really stand in "awe" now. The Greek word means what it means and can be used in various contexts. No argument. I agree. And anyone with any common sense that reads about the resurrection of the saints, knows it will be sudden; in the twinkle of an eye Paul says those living to see Jesus return will be changed from mortal to immortality, at the LAST trump - 1 Cor.15. But Lahaye and Hindson go on to say, "Obviously 'harpazo' is the perfect word to describe God SUDDENLY TAKING UP THE CHURCH FROM EARTH TO HEAVEN AT THE FIRST PART OF CHRIST'S SECOND COMING." Did you notice it? Did you get it? Along with the technical word [which I have no argument with] they do more word adding from themselves: "taking up the church from earth to heaven at the first part of Christ's coming." Go to a Bible lexicon, go to Strong's Concordance, and see if when looking up this word "harpazo" you can find "taking up the church from earth to heaven at the first part of Christ's second coming." Give you 10,000 dollars if you can. Lahaye and Hindson have added their decades long teaching of a "secret invisible" return with a "first part" of Christ's second coming. To the brain-washed follower of the fundamental prophets teaching, all this sounds real good, for the guys have added some "technical" stuff to their teaching..... wow stand in awe again! Of course the resurrection will be sudden and unexpected by the un-Christian world, and by the false Christians who will be at the time following the false prophet of the book of Revelation - Keith Hunt) WILL THE RAPTURE BE PRETRIBULATIONAL? The Church Is Not on Earth in Revelation 4-18 The common New Testament term for church (Greek, ekklesia) is used 19 times in Revelation 1-3, which deals with the historical church of the first century. However, Revelation uses church once more - at the very end (22:16), where John returns to addressing the first-century church. Most interesting is the fact that nowhere during the Tribulation period is the term church used in reference to believers on earth. (This technical argument I have proven to be totally false and again a made up fancy of the fundamental prophets who want to hold to a two-phased second coming of Christ, a secret rapture and a glorious appearing, with 7 years between them. I've answered this argument in other studies on the "Secret Rapture" teaching on this website. I refer the reader to those other studies - Keith Hunt) John's shift from his detailed instructions for the church to his absolute silence about the church for many chapters is remarkable and totally unexpected if in fact the church continued into the Tribulation. If the church were to experience the Tribulation (the seventieth week of Daniel 9), then surely the most detailed study of Tribulation events would include instructions for the church. But it doesn't. The only explanation for this frequent mention of the church in Revelation 1-3 and total absence of the church on earth until Revelation 22:16 is a pretribulation rapture, which will relocate the church from earth to heaven prior to the Tribulation. (Again I refer the reader to my other studies in which I prove Lahaye and Hindson [with their other minister friends] to be in total error on the point they now bring up. And in those other studies I prove there will be NO PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE of the saints to heaven while the earth goes under a 7 year great tribulation period - Keith Hunt) A POSTtribulational Rapture Is Inconsequential If God miraculously preserves the church through the Tribulation, why have a rapture? If it is to avoid the wrath of God at Armageddon (at the end of the Tribulation), then why would God not continue to protect the saints on earth (as is postulated by posttribulationism) just as He protected Israel (see Exodus 8:22; 9:4,26; 10:23; 11:7) from His wrath poured out upon Pharaoh and Egypt? Further, if the purpose of the rapture is for living saints to avoid Armageddon, why also resurrect the saints (who are already immune) at the same time? (There is NO teaching in the Bible of some "rapture" of the church to avoid "the day of the Lord" or some other mighty events, before Jesus comes in power and visible glory. The rapture or resurrection comes AFTER God has preserved some of His saints during the tribulation and day of the Lord. The rapture or resurrection comes at the LAST trumpet sound, at the time Jesus comes ONCE only, visible and glorious, to resurrect the dead saints and to change the living saints to immortality; to receive them all in the clouds, in the air of this earth, and in that day (Zech. 14) to set foot on the Mount of Olives, and to establish the Kingdom of God on earth. See my many other studies on this subject on this website, under "prophecy" - Keith Hunt) If the rapture took place in connection with our Lord's posttribulational glorious appearing, the subsequent separation of the sheep from the goats (Matthew 25:31-46) would be redundant. Separation would have taken place in the very act of translation. (Lahaye and Hindson have a mind that reads right over words of the Bible. So it is often with false prophets and false teachers of the Bible. Open your Bible. Turn to Matthew 25. Start reading from verse 31. Did you notice the last words? If not look again - what does it say? It says, "THEN [after His coming in glory, with the holy angels - see Matt. 24:30,31] SHALL HE SIT UPON THE THRONE OF HIS GLORY!!!" Now go to Luke 1:31-33. Jesus is to receive the THRONE OF DAVID and a Kingdom that shall last forever - no end. Jesus has NOT YET been given the throne of David. Jesus has not yet returned to establish a Kingdom that will have no end. Neither of these things did Jesus receive in His physical life on earth. When He returns in GLORY, He will sit upon the throne of David. THEN - THEN, the sheep will be divided from the goats - THEN - DURING THE 1,000 YEAR AGE, when Jesus rules the nations of earth for 1,000 years will the sheep be divided from the goats. OH the folly, and the stupid reading that some fundamental prophets have in reading the Bible - Keith Hunt) If all Tribulation-era believers are raptured and glorified after the Tribulation and just prior to the inauguration of the millennial kingdom, who then will be left to populate and propagate the kingdom? (This is another case where Lahaye and Hindson minds are all mixed up and up-side-down and in-side-out. The people left after the saints are resurrected and made immortal at the coming of Christ in glory, after the great tribulation and day of the Lord, will be the physical people of the earth, whom Jesus and the saints will rule and bring salvation to. They will be the ones where the dividing of the sheep from the goats will take place, all during that 1,000 year age - Keith Hunt) The Scriptures indicate that God will judge the living unbelievers at the end of the Tribulation and remove them from the earth (see Matthew 13:41-42; 25:41). (The context of the above verses given and many other passages of the entire Bible, show that the dividing of sheep from goats, takes place over 1,000 years, and then the goats or chaff are put in the furnace of fire - the second death - see Revelation 20. There is judgment on the nations of the earth at the coming of Christ, but passage after passage in the books of the holy prophets of the Bible, CLEARLY teach, NOT ALL SINNERS, not ALL unbelievers will be removed from the earth at Christ's coming. This is not just an "indication" this is absolute dogmatic truth that all the prophetic books of the Bible teach - Keith Hunt) Yet they also teach that children will be born to believers during the millennium and that these children will be capable of sin (see Isaiah 65:20; Revelation 20:7-10). This would not be possible if all the believers on earth were glorified through a posttribulational rapture. (Again, Lahaye and Hindson have things mixed up, and little understanding of Bible prophecy. At the return of Christ all past and living saints will be in that first resurrection to immortality. But physical people will STILL be on earth [as I prove in many studies on this website] - they, most of them, in time will be converted, they will become believers. They will still be physical. They will marry and have children. Physical believers will continue to reproduce and have children. And yes sin can still be done, if a person chooses to sin. God will never make humans into robots - free moral will, will still be in each physical human during that 1,000 year age. All this is fully expounded upon in my many studies on the age to come - Keith Hunt) A posttribulational rapture and the church's supposed immediate return to earth leaves no time for the "bema" - the judgment seat of Christ (1 Corinthians 3:10-15; 2 Corinthians 5:10). For these reasons, a posttribulational rapture makes no logical sense. A pretribulational rapture, by contrast, does not leave us with these insurmountable difficulties. (There are no difficulties as Lahaye and Hindson would like you to believe. The judgment seat of Christ is when the saints stand before Christ on the sea of glass, when He returns, when the resurrection takes place, after the great tribulation and day of the Lord, after the 6 trumpets blow, and when the last and 7th trumpet blows. Seven trumpets only are given in the book of Revelation - the 7th is the resurrection to immortality for the dead and living saints of God. They meet Christ in the air, in the clouds, on the sea of glass. The judgment day for them has arrived. They are before Christ and receive their rewards according to their works. The "judgment seat of Christ" or "Judgment Day" is also NOT understood by Lahaye and Hindson and Catholicism and Protestantism. You need to study my study "The Truth about Judgment Day" on this website - Keith Hunt) The Tribulation Is Not Impending All through the New Testament epistles, God gave many instructions to the church, including warnings, but never once are believers warned to prepare for entering and enduring the Tribulation (Daniel's seventieth week). (Whatttt.... I get blown-away by the silly ideas and the obvious silly reading of the Bible by these fundamental prophets. They just have to read Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; as a child [I used to read those chapters over and over again as a child] but child reading is far from them. I knew as a child that Jesus in the Gospels, gave warnings to be prepared for persecutions to come on Christians, then, today, and tomorrow. It is all over the New Testament. We are to endure trials, persecutions; we are to fight the good fight; we are to remain faithful to the end; we are to put on the whole armor of God to withstand the wiles of the Devil; we are to be willing to die for the truth; we are to stand up and be counted; we are to remember as Jesus said, "They who kill you will think they do God service." The truth about Daniel's 70th week is also on this website in detail. It is NOT what the fundamental prophets teach - Keith Hunt) The New Testament warns vigorously about coming error and false prophets (Acts 20:29-30; 2 Peter 2:1;1 John 4:1-3; Jude 4) and against ungodly living (Ephesians 4:25-5:7; 1 Thessalonians 4:3-8; Hebrews 12:1). The New Testament even admonishes believers to endure in the midst of present tribulation (i Thessalonians 2:13-14; 2 Thessalonians 1:4; and all of 1 Peter). However, the New Testament is absolutely silent about the church preparing for the Tribulation as described in Revelation 6-18. (They think it is silent but it is not, for the NT it is just an expected thing in life, life at the end time. Revelation 12 - the story of the true Church of God. Like other ages in history, there comes persecution, along with it comes death for some Christians, and others are spared. It has been this way from the beginning of human time. It is this way today. Some Christians in some countries face death for being Christians, some do die, some do not. Tomorrow will be the same - some will have to die for the faith once delivered to the saints, some will be spared, they will live on. So it has always been - see Hebrews 11. So it shall be to the end of this age. Revelation 12 and the true Church of God - some will die for the faith during the last years of this age, some will escape to the wilderness and live on right to the coming of Christ, those are the ones whom Paul says will be changed in a twinkle of an eye at Jesus' coming, from mortal to immortal - Keith Hunt) The Scriptures would certainly not be silent about such a major and traumatic period of time for the church. If the rapture were to happen partway through or at the end of the Tribulation, one would expect the epistles to teach the presence, purpose, and conduct of the church during the Tribulation. However, we find none of this teaching whatsoever. Only a pretribulation rapture satisfactorily explains the lack of such instructions. (Garbage to Lahaye and Hindson comments - the more I read these fundamental prophets the angrier I get. Nothing could be further from the truth. But people do not want the truth, they want nice sweet words to comfort them, put them to sleep, and so the fundamental prophets give them those word, and probably themselves also, for most of them, do not want to think they have to stiffen their back-bone, stand up to be counted, put their life on the line, even have to die for the truth. So a nice secret rapture to take you to heaven and restful bliss for 7 years, while the world falls apart, blows itself to bits, and all kinds of horrible things go on in a tribulation that Jesus said would be the greatest tribulation to ever come on earth in human history. The Bible gives examples after examples, teaching after teaching, both Old and New Testament, that persecutions and even death have come upon God's people at times, sometimes more often, sometimes not as often. In the end time, the last 42 months, 1260 days [book of Revelation] God's true Church will again experience persecutions unto death for some, and escape into the wilderness for others. All expounded for you in detail in many studies on this website including the book of Revelation under "The New Testament Bible Story" - Keith Hunt) The Content of 1 Thessalonians 4:73-78 Let us hypothetically suppose for a moment that the rapture is not pretribulational. What would we expect to find in 1 Thessalonians 4? How does this compare with what we observe there? We would expect the Thessalonians to be joyous over the fact that loved ones are home with the Lord and will not have to endure the horrors of the Tribulation. But we discover that the Thessalonians are actually grieving because they fear their loved ones have missed the rapture. Only the possibility of a pretribulation rapture accounts for this grief. (Paul in 1 Thes. 4:13-18 is answering the sorrow and IGNORANCE that some had in their mind, about those who had fallen asleep in death. Many of his readers did not know the truths of God on this matter. They were thinking and acting like the world - no hope in death. Paul is having to help them, correct them, give them true instruction about death. Obviously many did not know the answer to death. There was no fear that their loved ones have missed the rapture. They were IGNORANT about the "death question" - they did not know, had to be instructed, in the death question. The world, as many today say, there is nothing after death, no hope of some life after death, so live to the fullest now, wine, women, and song. This passage of Paul has nothing to do with some "secret rapture" or any "rapture" per se. It has to do with Paul having to instruct some who did not know about death and the plan of God. He had to tell them there was hope, it was not like the world viewed death, BECAUSE God would have a RESURRECTION BACK TO LIFE FOR ALL SAINTS, DEAD OR ALIVE, AND IT WOULD BE WITH A TRUMP, AND THE AT CHRIST'S COMING; THE SAINTS DEAD OR ALIVE WOULD MEET CHRIST IN THE AIR, THE CLOUDS, AND BE WITH HIM FOREVER - Keith Hunt) We would also expect the Thessalonians to be grieving over their own impending trial rather than over loved ones. Furthermore, we would expect them to be inquisitive about their own future doom. But the Thessalonians have no fears or questions about the coming Tribulation. (Well that is simple to answer. They had no fear or questions about any coming tribulation, for they knew as Christians, tribulation may very well come. I mean Paul was a great example for them. They would see what Paul at times had to go through in persecution and tribulation. They had known Stephen had been killed for speaking the truth. They had known James and probably others as we see in the book of Acts, were persecuted and even killed. Going through tribulation was not a question with them, of course not. For such was to be expected at times. Tribulation for the faith of Christ was all around them, some persecuted even unto death, others not. They had the apostle John, who seemed to be free from any large tribulation, and as the century went on, John lived to a ripe old age, while others like Paul and Peter were killed for the faith. They had the words of Christ, that persecution could come on you if you followed Him. Even Jesus saying some who would kill you would think they were doing God a service. They had no fear or questions about coming tribulations because they did know the answer to that question - it could come, and they could die for the faith, while others would live on - Keith Hunt) Finally, we would expect Paul, even in the absence of interest or questions by the Thessalonians, to provide instructions and exhortation for such a supreme test, which would make their present tribulation seem microscopic in comparison. But we find not even one indication of any impending tribulation of this kind. Given the scenario in 1 Thessalonians 4, only the possibility of a pretribulation rapture makes sense. (Nope wrong again for Lahaye and Hindson. They knew the answer to tribulation, small or great. It could come, small or great, short or long. They had examples in the Old Testament of God's saints under persecution, even to death - Hebrews 11. They had Paul's example of many persecutions, perils, stonings, beatings, and some saints who had already been put to death for Christ. They very well knew the answer to tribulations. No need to ask Paul about it, or to be ignorant about that issue - Keith Hunt) John 14.1-3 Parallels 1 Thessalonians 4.73-78 John 14:1-3 refers to Christ's coming again. It is not a promise to all believers that they will go to Him at death. Rather, it refers to the rapture of the church. Note the close parallels between the promises of John 14:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. First, consider the promises of a presence with Christ: "... that where I am, there you may be also" (John 14:3), and "Thus we shall always be with the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:17). Second, note the promises of comfort: "Let not your heart be troubled" (John 14:1), and "Therefore comfort one another with these words" (I Thessalonians 4:18). (Okay all good so far in the phrases picked out - Keith Hunt) Jesus instructed the disciples that He was going to His Father's house (heaven) to prepare a place for them. He promised them that He would return and receive them so that they could be with Him wherever He was. The phrase "wherever I am," while implying a continued presence in general, here means presence in heaven in particular. (Now Lahaye and Hindson start to go off track - "where I am" they say "here means presence in heaven in particular." Now you try to find the word "heaven" in this passage under discussion. Nope it ain't there. It is someone reading into it what they want you to read into it. They want to get this teaching of their's into your mind, so they put words in the passage that are not there. They pretty well know, most, the majority, of their readers look to them for understanding the Bible [as most readers do little if any Bible research for themselves]. They know most of their readers stand in "awe" of them, so it is easy for them to "lead you down the garden path." They tell you John is writing here that Jesus meant you are going to heaven, even if Jesus did not say that at all; they want you to believe it is most definitely implied - Keith Hunt) Our Lord told the Pharisees in John 7:34, "Where I am you cannot come." He was not talking about His present abode on earth, but rather, His resurrected presence at the right hand of the Father. In John 14:3, "where I am" must mean "in heaven," or 14:1-3 would be meaningless. (The first one is correct as they put it. But now they want you to hook John 14:1-3 with the first one they mention. But the Bible has a context to all verses. And the Bible must interpret itself. If Jesus had and wanted His followers to clearly know that they would one day "get to heaven to be with him" it would have been very easy for Jesus to have said, "Where I am in heaven" or "Where I am you also will be with me in heaven." Jesus said no such words. Now the fundamental people and just about all Christianity teach that SOMEDAY you will "get to heaven" - they may vary on the WHEN, but they all teach, one day Christians will get to heaven, even the seventh Day Adventists teach it. So again reading into this verse that this is what Jesus was teaching, makes sense to them, for they all believe one day Christians will be with Christ in heaven. Stop and think now, what if the religious Jews of Jesus' day did not think about heaven as you going there, at death [if your a good Jew or Christian] or think about it in the way Christians today think about it .... just got to be there. What if many or most of the religious Jews believed death was death, and only a resurrection by God could bring you back to life. And what if those Jews [and Christians] knew the Messiah would come and set up a Kingdom over the nations of the earth, live on earth, rule from Jerusalem. And what if with that idea in mind they knew the resurrection would take place at the Messiah's coming, and so they would be with Him on earth, via a resurrection from death. Now if all that was so with the religious Jews and Christians of the first century, then the words of Jesus saying He would go and prepare a place for them, come again, receive them, and wherever He was they would be also, would be taken quite differently. Well I submit to you, those words by Jesus would NOT be taken as Christians today want to take them. And we also then must let the Bible interpret the Bible. Jesus certainly taught He would come again, and His followers when He came would be with Him. So when Jesus comes again, when His people are with Him, where does He go? The answer is found in Zechariah 14. Notice the words "in that day" and "mount of Olives." And note verse 7 and Jesus saying in the Gospels that only the Father new the day of Christ's return. It should all start to jell with you by now, if you have your Bible open and ARE seeing the words for yourself - Keith Hunt) A posttribulation rapture would require that the saints meet Christ in the air and immediately descend to earth without experiencing what our Lord promised in John 14. Because John 14 refers to the rapture, only a pretribulation rapture satisfies the language of John 14:1-3 and allows raptured saints to dwell for a meaningful period of time with Christ in His Father's house. (I have answered John 14:1-3 in another study on this website, but I'm also answering it here. John 14:1-3 has nothing to do about "going to heaven" - the word "heaven" is not there. As shocking as it may sound, the Bible nowhere promises that Christians will "get to heaven" or "be with Christ in heaven" or "sit in heaven with the Father" - that is the heaven where the Father and Jesus now live. The fundamental prophets do teach that Jesus will rule the earth and the nations upon it for 1,000 years. They, or most of them now, from what I read in their literature, do teach the new heaven and new earth, and God the Father coming to the new earth. But ... but, and this seems desperately important to them, somehow Christians have to get to heaven. If it's not at death [many of them now know the immortal soul idea has much difficulties] then they say, "when can we get this going to heaven in?" Ah, they will as Lahaye and Hindson have done "get going to heaven" in with a pre-tribulation, secret rapture teaching. At least they say you can get to heaven for 7 years - Keith Hunt) The Rapture and the Return A comparison of the rapture (1 Corinthians 15:50-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-IS) with the glorious appearing (Matthew 24-25) reveals at least eight significant contrasts or differences. These differences demand that the rapture occur at a significantly different time from Christ's glorious appearing: (Oh it does? Well we shall see, we'll look at what they say - Keith Hunt) 1. At the rapture, Christ comes in the air and returns to heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the glorious appearing, Christ comes to the earth to dwell and reign (Matthew 25:31-32). (Nope 1 Thes.4:17 does not say Christ returns to heaven. You have to read that into the passage. It says we meet Him in the air, the clouds, and we stay with Him. Where He goes from there you have to let other verses tell you - again Zech.14. The glorious coming, which is NOT a separate phase of two phases of His coming, Jesus does indeed return to earth - Zech.14 again - Keith Hunt) 2. At the rapture, Christ gathers His own (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). At the glorious appearing, angels gather the elect (Matthew 24:31). (Bible semantics. One verse tells you it is Christ gathering, another verse tells you HOW Christ will gather. By the authority of Christ, the angels go forth to gather, in so doing it is also Christ that gathers. The Bible is full of such talk, one verse putting it this way, and another verse making to plain or in more detail, as to how the other verse is carried out - Keith Hunt) 3. At the rapture, Christ comes to reward (I Thessalonians 4:17). At the glorious appearing, Christ comes to judge (Matthew 25:31-46). (Again, grasping at straws. Many events take place at the coming in glory of Christ the Messiah. Breaking it up can be easy to do IF you have a reason for doing it, and the fundamental prophets with their secret rapture, 7 years in heaven for the saints, have one huge reason to break things up and put them in an order the Bible does not put them. Many things take place when the Messiah comes. If you read my expounding of all the prophetic books of the Bible on this website, you will come to see MANY things take place at the return of Christ. Pouring out the seven last plagues, hailstones, battle of Armageddon, resurrection of the saints, rewards handed out, judgment on the Beast power, judgment on the beast man and the false prophet and etc. to name a few - Keith Hunt) 4. The rapture, resurrection is prominent (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). At the glorious appearing, resurrection is not mentioned. (God does not have to mention the same things in the same context, but in different passages. He is not obliged to follow the arguments of Lahaye and Hindson on this point. God is God. He sets the rules by which He desires to write. What is mentioned in one passage about the same event, does not have to be exactly the same things mentioned in another passage about the same event. This kind of argument makes people say, "Well you can prove anything by the Bible" and so the skeptic walks on thumbing their nose at God and the Bible and people who prove anything from the Bible - Keith Hunt) 5. At the rapture, believers depart the earth (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). At the glorious appearing, unbelievers are taken away from the earth (Matthew 24:37-41). (Of course at the resurrection saints are raised from the dead, living saints are changed, all leave the earth to meet Christ in the air, in the clouds. Matthew 24:37-41 is completely misunderstood by Lahaye and Hindson. I have expounded this passage fully in other studies on this website, under prophecy. Briefly: the context is the day of Christ's return verse 36. The world will not expect it, just as they were not expecting the flood of Noah's day. It is the day of Christ's return. Saints will be on this earth, as I've proved in other studies. They will be here and there. Some will be converted during the great tribulation and day of the Lord; the book of Revelation says 144,000 from the tribes of Israel - Rev.7. Some will be around the un- converted. The converted saints will, on the day of Christ's coming, literally yes, disappear from view. Of course they will because they will be in the resurrection and taken by the angels to be with Christ in the air, in the clouds, upon the sea of glass - Keith Hunt) 6. At the rapture, unbelievers remain on earth. At the glorious appearing, believers remain on earth (Matthew 25:34). (At the ONE event of Jesus' return, yes un-believers will be on earth. Jesus is coming back to rule the physical nations of the earth. At the same ONE event believers will be on earth, as many in that day when they see Jesus return will believe, many will know Christ does exist; many will come to repentance on that day. And from then on the sheep and goats will be divided. All expounded in-depth as I go through each prophetic book of the Bible on this website - Keith Hunt) 7. Christ's kingdom on earth is not mentioned at the rapture. At the glorious appearing, Christ has come to set up His kingdom on earth (Matthew 25:31,34). (Again, the same silly argument of Lahaye and Hindson. God does not have to write the same thing the same way, mentioning the same things, when writing about the same event. One aspect of the same event can be mentioned in one passage, and another aspect of the same event mentioned in another passage. My oh my, what a silly argument - Keith Hunt) 8. At the rapture, believers will receive glorified bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-57). At the glorious appearing, survivors will not receive glorified bodies. (Of course this is so. Very simple. At the resurrection saints will be glorified, made immortal, raised from death to immortality, or changed from flesh and blood to immortality. Those who survive the last years of this age, who are not chosen to be saints and to be made immortal at Christ's coming, like about 10 percent of the people of the tribes of Israel, will go on into the 1,000 years as physical people. Jesus and the saints will rule over physical people in literal nations of the earth. Again all expounded for you in detail as I reveal to you what all the prophetic books of the Bible teach - Keith Hunt) The Promise of Deliverance In Revelation 3:10, Jesus promised, "I will keep you from [Greek, ek, "out of"] the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world." This passage makes it clear that Christ's intention is to keep the church out of the Tribulation period. (Nope. The passage it to a "church group" only, see the context of other church groups in Revelation 2 and 3. Revelation 12 gives you the "rest of the story" as the late Paul Harvey wouls say on his radio program. It will be as it has always been in all history - some of God's children will escape persecution and tribulation and death, in the wilderness, and other children of God will have to stand up and be counted, be a witness for the truth, and even have to die for the truth of God. So it has always been, so it will be again at the end time - Keith hunt) The Greek preposition "ek" admittedly has the basic idea of emergence. But this is not always so. Two notable examples are 2 Corinthians 1:10 and 1 Thessalonians 1:10. In the Corinthian passage, Paul rehearses his rescue from death by God. Paul did not emerge from death but rather was rescued from the potential danger of death. Even more convincing is 1 Thessalonians 1:10. Here, Paul states that Jesus is rescuing believers out of the wrath to come. The idea is not emergence out of, but rather protection from entrance into divine wrath. (Even so, using the Greek, does not change the fact that Revelation 3:10 is about ONE GROUP of people to be spared from persecution and death of the Great Tribulation, just as Revelation 12 pictures and tells us - Keith Hunt) If Revelation 3:10 means immunity or protection within as other positions insist, then several contradictions result. First, if protection in Revelation 3:10 is limited to protection from God's wrath only and not Satan's, then Revelation 3:10 denies our Lord's request in John 17:15. (Revelation 3:10 is protection from Satan's wrath as well as protection all the way through the last 42 months of this age - the great tribulation and the day of the Lord - Keith Hunt) Second, if Revelation 3:10 means total immunity, then of what worth is the promise in light of Revelation 6:9-11 and 7:14, where martyrs abound? The wholesale martyrdom of saints during the Tribulation demands that the promise to the Philadelphia church be interpreted as "keeping out of" the hour of testing, not "keeping within." (Keeping out of the hour of testing, is keeping out of, and not within. For Revelation 12 tells you HOW the keeping out of is to be done - fleeing to the wilderness, by part of the true people of God, NOT by some "secret rapture" that takes you to heaven. Oh the lack of reading all the Bible, even all the passages on any given subject, even all of a book. Such sloppy reading of the Bible, gives sloppy theology that deceives millions - Keith Hunt) The church is to be delivered from the wrath to come. The apostle Paul tells us in 1 Thessalonians 1:10 that we should "wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come." The context of this passage points to the rapture. The church must be removed from the earth before the Tribulation begins in order to be delivered from the wrath to come. (Again, total garbage. The context is no such thing as Lahaye and Hindson say. Look at it yourselves. Open your Bible. See it for yourselves. Note verse 3 - work of faith, labor of love. Note verse 6 - followers of us, and of the LORD. Note verse 8 - from you sound out the word of the Lord .... in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad. Go into chapter 2. It is all to do with serving the Lord, in truth and life, and NOTHING TO DO WITH THE RAPTURE OR RESURRECTION. LIVING IN THE LORD MEANS WE WILL NOT COME INTO THE WRATH OF THE LORD VIA CONDEMNATION AND THE SECOND DEATH!! Keith Hunt) The church is not appointed to wrath. According to 1 Thessalonians 5:9, "God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." Once again, the context of this passage shows it is referring to the rapture. (The context is NOT referring to the rapture or resurrection per se. If you want to get real technical the context starts with "the DAY OF THE LORD" verse 2. The day of the Lord is NOT the great tribulation, but Lahaye and Hindson have no clue about understanding Bible prophecy. So the day of the Lord is the last day (day for a year in prophecy) - last year of this age. And so Christians living at that time, by being in the light, watching soberly, not as those in the night, spiritual darkness, but putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation - looking at the verses following. For we need to do this because God does not want us to face wrath, but salvation. In so doing we can live together with Him. Yes finally a resurrection to eternal life with Christ. Two things: So living we escape the day of the Lord that it does not come on us as those in darkness, for it will bring sudden destruction. This applies to those who are alive at the time of the day of the Lord. Second, and more important, living in the Lord, means we find salvation and not His wrath in condemnation and the second death - Keith Hunt) Because the Tribulation specifically involves God's wrath, and because Christians are not appointed to His wrath, the church must be raptured out of the way before the Tribulation begins. (No the Scriptures say the Great Tribulation is Satan's wrath on the earth, especially he will go after the true Church of God. See Revelation 12. Some will escape his wrath, and find safety in the wilderness. Others of the true church will have to stand up and be counted, they will have to be witnesses for the truth, and even die for the faith once delivered to the saints - Revelation 12 - Keith Hunt) If the church is raptured at the end of the Tribulation, no one will be left to populate the millennium. (What absolute crazy Bible reading these two guys have between them. I'm just about lost for words at their total ignorance of the prophetic books of the Bible. The resurrection of the saints of God, yes after the great tribulation and the day of the Lord, means only that true saints are made immortal; the rest of the physical people on earth, left alive after the battle of Armageddon, the 10 percent of physical Israelites, they go on into the millennium, the 1,000 year age, as physical people, and continue to populate the earth - Keith Hunt) Just prior to the beginning of the millennium, all sinners (those who reject Jesus Christ as Savior) who survive the Tribulation will be cast into hell according to Matthew 25:46. (Again a full misunderstanding of Matthew 25:46 - this parable is AFTER Jesus has returned, when sitting on the throne of David. The goats are not thrown into the lake of fire, the second death, until the end of the 1,000 year age. All explained in detail in many other studies on prophecy on this website - Keith Hunt) Should the rapture occur at the end of the Tribulation, all Christians would be taken from the earth as well, leaving no one on earth with a natural body to repopulate the planet during the millennium. (Gross error! Not all who will believe in that day, the day of Christ's return, when thousands will see Him come in the clouds of heaven, will be in the first resurrection. They may well believe Jesus has come again, as like about 10 percent of Israelites, but that will not qualify them to be in the first resurrection. Hence tens of thousands will still remain as physical humans. And not only that but thousands of un-believers will survive and we have the prophecy of Ezekiel 38 and 39 coming to pass. There is so much on this, you will need to study my expounding of all the prophetic books of the Bible, to understand it all in detail - Keith Hunt) The "righteous" (the "sheep") who enter the millennium are the saints who survive the Tribulation - those who were unsaved at the time of the rapture but became believers during the Tribulation. (Garbage theology here also. The sheep of Matthew 25 are those who accept Christ AFTER His return, when He sits on the throne of David to judge the nations, to start to divide the sheep from the goats - they are physical human beings - Keith Hunt) Many of these saints will be martyred during this time, but those who survive the Tribulation will repopulate the earth during the millennium. For this to occur, the rapture must take place prior to the Tribulation instead of at the end. (All silly nonsense. Those saints who live during the great tribulation and day of the Lord, will have qualified to be in the first resurrection. As Jesus gave in one parable, some toil all day [many years of their life - decades maybe] and some toil at the 11th hour - for a relatively short while, 42 months at the end of this age, or a little less if called during the great tribulation, is a short time, an 11th hour. But Jesus went on to say, they all received the penny wage as did those who toiled for a long time - they all get salvation - Keith Hunt) QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1. Since the phrase "to meet the Lord" in 1 Thessalonians 4.17 can refer to a friendly city going out to meet the visiting king and escorting him back to the city, does not this phrase point decidedly to a posttribulational rapture? First, this Greek term can refer to either meeting within a city (Mark 14:13; Luke 17:12) or going out of the city to meet and return back (Matthew 25:6; Acts 28:15). So the use of this particular phrase is not at all decisive. Second, remember that at the glorious appearing, Christ is coming to a hostile people in general who will eventually fight against Him at Armageddon. The pretribulational rapture best pictures the king rescuing, by a rapture, His faithful followers who are trapped in a hostile world and who will later accompany Him when He returns to earth to conquer His enemies and set up His kingdom (Revelation 19:11-16). (The truth is not ascertained by saying this fits a better scenario than this other. 1 Thes. 4 and the context of verse 17 is to be put with 1 Cor.15 and many other verses, which I've already done here and in many other studies on the subject - Keith Hunt) 2. Why does Paul write in 1 Thessalonians 5:6 for believers to be alert to "the day of the Lord" if they're not going to face it due to being raptured before the Tribulation? Paul exhorts believers in 1 Thessalonians 5:6 to be alert and living godly in a "day of the Lord" context just as Peter does in 2 Peter 3:14-15, where the "day of the Lord" experience is clearly at the end of the millennium (because the old heavens and earth will be destroyed and replaced with the new). In such passages are exhortations for true believers to live godly lives in the light of God's future judgment on unbelievers. (Well for once the guys have a truth. Some verses are for people down the passage of time, and for a generality for all Christians for all ages, and so they do not come into the condemnation of the wrath of God when the second death in the lake of fire takes place - Keith Hunt) 3. Does not Matthew 24:37-42, where people are taken out of the world, teach a posttribulational rapture? In fact, Matthew 24:37-42 teaches just the opposite. First, it teaches that Noah and his family were left alive while the whole world was taken away in death and judgment. This is exactly the sequence to be expected at Christ's glorious appearing as taught in the parable of the wheat and tares (Matthew 13:24-43), the parable of the dragnet (Matthew 13:47-50), and the "sheep and goats" judgment of the nations (Matthew 25:31-46). In every one of these instances, at the glorious appearing, unbelievers are taken away in judgment, and the righteous believers remain. (Noah and his example is given by Jesus not to teach the wicked with remain while believers disappear. It is given in the context, yes context again, of "unexpected" - "unknown" - see verse 36. Life was going on quite normal in the days of Noah, Jesus gives examples of normal life of that time. It was so, right up to the time of the flood, that came UNEXPECTED. The whole section is to do with not knowing the day of Christ's return, only the Father, and to watch the signs Jesus has given in the whole chapter, so that day does not come UNEXPECTEDLY on Christians. For when it does come the resurrection will take place and true Christians will disappear to be with the Lord, verses 40-42. The Lord does not come until AFTER the great tribulation and the day of the Lord - Keith Hunt) 4. Does not a pretribulation rapture result in two second comings of Christ, whereas Scripture teaches there is only one second coming? Not at all. Regardless of the rapture position one holds, Christ's second coming is one event that occurs in two parts - Christ coming in the air to rapture the church and Christ coming to earth to conquer the world and set up His kingdom. (Have you ever heard of such SILLY AND FROM PLANET PLUTO reasonings? They tell us Christ's second coming is ONE EVENT, then go on to say the one event has TWO PARTS. Now when you understand as shown by them, that the two parts have 7 years between them .... I mean, give me a break, one event with a secret and visible two parts with 7 years in-between. This has got to be one of the stupidest human reasonings in Christian theology - Keith Hunt) 5. If pretribulationism is true, why doesn't Revelation 4-19 mention the church in heaven? It is true that the Greek word for church (ekklesia) is not used of the church in heaven in Revelation 4-19. However, that does not mean the church is invisible. The church appears in heaven at least twice. First, the 24 elders in Revelation 4-5 symbolize the church. (Come on now, wow, what more silly reasoning - the 24 elders symbolize the church. Give me another break! There is nothing in the entire Bible to acquaint the 24 elders in heaven as symbolizing the Church of God being in heaven - grasping at straws they are - Keith Hunt) Second, the phrase "you saints and apostles and prophets" in Revelation 18:20 clearly refers to the church in heaven. (Once more, this is getting so silly they should go on Canada's TV show called "Just for Laughs." Jesus is writing (He's the author of Revelation, see the beginning of chapter one) that yes the heaven needs to rejoice over the obliteration of Babylon, but also the apostles and prophets... It does NOT say the apostles and prophets are in heaven. Again that has to be read into it, and if you believe in the immortality of the soul and the secret rapture idea, then you will read into this verse what these two guys have done, to hold your teaching of a secret rapture with saints in heaven for 7 years before Jesus returns visibly - Keith Hunt) Also, Revelation 19 pictures the church (the bride of Christ) in heaven prior to her triumphal return. Which rapture scenario best accounts for the church being in heaven in these texts at this time? A pretribulation rapture. (The chapter does begin with a scene in heaven. But when we get to the "Lord God omnipotent reigns" verse 6, we have come to the Lord reigning, simple as that, right, yes pretty simple. The Lord now reigns. When does the Lord reign? When He returns to earth. His wife has made herself ready - white garments she has, that are the righteousness of the saints, verses 7,8, and see Ps.119:172. When do the saints get to be with Christ? We have seen at the LAST trumpet sound. The resurrection takes place. They rise to meet Jesus in the air, in the clouds - 1 Thes.4:13-17. The bride and the Groom are together; the marriage of the Lamb to the bride, the saints, takes place. Where? When they come together, as most human marriages do the same. They come together in the clouds of the air of this planet. This is NOT in heaven but in the atmosphere of this earth. Simple when you put Scripture with Scripture - Keith Hunt) 6. Why is Revelation addressed to the church if the church will not experience the Tribulation period due to the rapture? These texts cannot be used to determine the time of the rapture. One of the chief characteristics of the rapture is that it will be sudden, unexpected, and surprising. "No man knows the day or the hour," so we should live so as to "be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect" (Matthew 24:44). Only a pretribulation rapture preserves an imminent ("at any moment") return of Christ. (While no man knows the day not the hour of Jesus' return, only the Father. Jesus in the Gospels and in the book of Revelation, gives us signs upon signs as to what to watch for, leading up to the day of His return. The idea of an "imminent" - "any moment" return of Christ, is absolutely against all the signs and waymarks Jesus Himself has given us. The idea that Jesus can return at any second, is totally false, and not taught anywhere in the Bible. Only those teaching a secret rapture can hold this "any second" return for Jesus. The Bible holds no such view. I very dogmatically will tell you that Jesus CANNOT return until certain prophecies have taken place - certain signs He gave MUST COME TO PASS before He can return - Keith Hunt) Throughout the ages, Christians have understood the rapture to be imminent. Nothing could be a better motivator to holy living than knowing that Jesus could come at any moment. (If it takes the idea that Christ can come at any minute or second, to make you live a holy life, to serve the Lord, to love the Lord with all your heart, life and mind, then YOUR CHRISTIAN RELIGION I MUST QUESTION - Keith Hunt) .................... Feast of Trumpets - 2012 |
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