ANSWER TO "RAPTURE" PEOPLE

 SOME  OF  THE  PROTESTANT  FUNDAMENTAL  GUYS  ARE  BEMOANING  THE FACT  THAT  MORE  AND  MORE  PASTORS  AND  CHRISTIANS,  ARE  NOT  TEACHING  AND  NOT  BELIEVING  THE  IDEA  OF  A  TWO-PHASED  RETURN  OF  JESUS.  YES  NO  LONGER  BELIEVING  JESUS  WILL  COME  IN  A  SECRET  RAPTURE  TO  TAKE  "THE  CHURCH"  OFF  TO  HEAVEN  FOR  7  OR  3  AND  1/2  YEARS,  THEN  AFTER  WHICHEVER  TIME,  JESUS  WILL  RETURN  TO  ESTABLISH  THE  KINGDOM  OF  GOD  ON  EARTH.  IT  IS  TO  ME  UNREAL  THAT  SUCH  A  RAPURE--TRIBULATION  TEACHING  EVER  GOT  STARTED,  BUT  IT  DID,  AND  THOUGH  NOW  RELATIVELY   LESS  MINISTERS  AND  PEOPLE  BELIEVE  IT,  SOME  STILL  DO.  TIME  TO  GIVE  SOME  ANSWERS  TO  THEM.

POST-tribulationists

An answer to the Pre-tribulationists

POST-TRIBULATIONISTS THIS STUDY IS TAKEN FROM "THE POPULAR ENCYCLOPEDIA OF BIBLE PROPHECY" by Tim Lahaye and Ed Hindson. As the book is obviously the fundamental held teachings of a two phased, secret and visible coming of Christ, a secret rapture in the middle of a 7 year tribulation period, at the end of this age, such people as the compilers of the above encyclopedia, would classify me as post-tribulation. They give the outline of post-tribulation teaching. I will add some comments as I feel is needed, for further explanations - Keith Hunt POST-TRIBULATIONISM TEACHES that the church will endure the Great Tribulation and be raptured at its conclusion. According to this view, the rapture and second coming of Christ are one and the same. Therefore, posttribulationists believe the Tribulation could be imminent, but the rapture is not. ...... NOT FULLY SO. THE GREAT TRIBULATION IS NOT IMMINENT PER SE. CERTAIN EVENTS MUST COME TO PASS BEFORE THE GREAT END-TIME TRIBULATION COMES ON THIS EARTH - Keith Hunt Posttribulational writers suggest several "proofs" for their theory. Not every posttribulationist would agree with every argument listed below, but the following list identifies the major arguments by leading spokesmen in this theological camp. POSTTRIBULATIONAL "PROOFS" The Historical Argument One argument advanced by posttribulational writers is that the early church held their view. For this reason they sometimes refer to themselves as historic premillennialists. This argument has both a positive and negative emphasis. The positive argument is stated by Gundry (p.173): "Until Augustine in the fourth century, the early Church generally held to the premillenarian understanding of Bible eschatology. The "chiliasm" entailed a futuristic interpretation of Daniel's seventieth week, the abomination of desolation, and the personal Antichrist. And it was post tribulational." It is questionable whether anyone can demonstrate a finely developed eschatological position taught by the early post-apostolic church. This means the early church was neither clearly pretribulational nor clearly posttribulational. Addressing this subject, Ryrie (p.68) suggests, "The early church believed in tribulation, the imminent coming of Christ, and a Millennium to follow. The early church was clearly premillennial but not clearly pretribulational, nor was it clearly posttribulational when measured against today's developed developed posttribulation teachings." The timing of the rapture was not an issue with early church fathers. They knew Christ's coming was imminent. Therefore, they were looking for Him to come potentially at any time to deliver them from persecution. Also, one does not find any concept in the church fathers that would indicate they would face the wrath of God in the Great Tribulation. ...... IT MATTERS NOT WHAT SO-CALLED "CHURCH FATHERS" TAUGHT. IT IS WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES THAT IS THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER. FURTHER THERE IS NO TEACHING IN THE NT THAT SAYS CHRIST'S COMING WAS "IMMINENT" - THAT WORD CANNOT BE FOUND IN THE KJV OR STRONG'S CONCORDANCE OF THE BIBLE. THE DISCIPLES MAY WELL HAVE THOUGHT CHRIST'S COMING AGAIN WAS GOING TO BE WITHIN THE FIRST CENTURY A.D. EVEN THEN THE APOSTLE PAUL KNEW CERTAIN THINGS HAD TO TAKE PLACE BEFORE JESUS COULD RETURN (2 THES.2). BUT NO WRITER OF THE NT USED THE WORD "IMMINENT." THOSE WHO USE IT TODAY USE IT TO MEAN CHRIST COULD COME AT ANY SECOND, BUT IN A SECRET RAPTURE INVISIBLE COMING, TO TAKE THE SAINTS TO HEAVEN. SUCH A TEACHING CANNOT BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE, AS STATED, NEITHER CAN THE WORD "IMMINENT" BE FOUND IN THE NT - Keith Hunt The Argument Against Imminence One cannot read the New Testament and conclude the writers believed in anything other than an imminent return of Christ. They were convinced that Christ could return at any moment. Christians were exhorted to keep watching for His return (1 Thessalonians 5:18; 2 Peter 3:8-10) and wait for it (1 Corinthians 1:7; 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10; Titus 2:13). These commands were as meaningful and applicable to the first century as they are today. Even the implication of end-times signs does not conflict with the imminent return of Christ. ...... THE WRITERS OF THE NT DID NOT TEACH NOR BELIEVE THE "IMMINENT" RETURN OF CHRIST, AS RETURNING AT ANY SECOND OR MOMENT. BELIEVING JESUS WOULD RETURN IN THEIR LIFE TIME, AND THAT IT WAS THE LAST DAYS (1 JOHN 2:18) IS NOT THE SAME AS TEACHING HE COULD RETURN AT ANY SECOND, AND CERTAINLY NOT IN SOME "SECRET RAPTURE" MANNER. THE WORD "IMMINENT" CANNOT BE FOUND IN THE NT. I WILL SHORTLY DO A FULL STUDY OF EVERY VERSE IN THE NT CONCERNING THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST, AND SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT - Keith Hunt Posttribulational writers argue that the early church did not believe in the doctrine of imminence, nor do the Scriptures teach it. They claim the biblical injunctions to watch for the return of Christ do not necessarily mean it should be anticipated immediately. Posttribulationists argue that several things had to occur before Jesus could return, such as the fall of Jerusalem, Peter's death, the destruction of the Temple, the worldwide spread of the gospel, and the growth of the church. ...... I DO NOT TEACH SUCH IDEAS, BUT INDEED CERTAIN THINGS AS IN MATTHEW 24 AND THE BOOK OF REVELATION, AS WELL AS THE MANY PROPHECIES IN THE PROPHETS OF THE OLD TESTAMENT, MUST COME TO PASS BEFORE JESUS CAN RETURN - Keith Hunt Conservative scholars generally agree that the prophecy concerning Peter's martyrdom was recorded by John perhaps as much as 30 years after Peter was killed. How this could discourage the early Christians from believing in the imminent return of Christ is difficult to comprehend. The context in which this prophecy exists suggests some readers may have believed Christ would return even before the death of the aging apostle John (John 21:23). Posttribulationists tend to ignore the distinction between the rapture and second coming. This biblical distinction is a major argument for the pretribulational view. ...... AND THAT ARGUMENT IS MAJOR, THE "RAPTURISTS" DRAW ALL KINDS OF DIFFERENCE, WHERE A SIMPLE MATTER OF PUTTING VERSE WITH VERSE GIVES YOU THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER, SIMPLE AND UNCOMPLICATED - Keith Hunt 3. The Argument That the Church Is Promised Tribulation Another posttribulationist argument is that the church will endure the Great Tribulation. Verses such as John 16:1-2,33 and Romans 12:12 predict tribulation for the Christian, not escape. Those holding this position argue that this tribulation is simply the trials experienced over the years by Christians, so they equate suffering with the Great Tribulation. Others agree there is a coming Tribulation and that Christians will suffer during this period, but they are not subject to the wrath of God. This appears to be the majority belief of contemporary posttribulational teachers. Gundry (pp.46,62) admits, "It is not a point of disagreement whether the Church will ever suffer God's retributive wrath. She will not (John 3:36; 5:24; Rom. 5:9; 8:1; Eph. 2:3; 5:6; 1 Thes. 1:10; 5:9). As now, the Church will suffer persecution during the tribulation, but no saint can suffer divine wrath." But Pentecost (p.170) notes, "It must be noticed that the term tribulation is used in several different ways in Scripture. It is used in a non-technical, non-eschatological sense in reference to any time of suffering or testing into which one goes. It is so used in Matthew 13:21; Mark 4:17; John 16:33; Romans 5:3;12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4; 2 Thessalonians 1:4; Revelation 1:9. It is used in its technical or eschatological sense in reference to the whole period of the seven years of tribulation, as in Revelation 2:22 or Matthew 24:29. It is also used in reference to the last half of this seven-year period, as in Matthew 24:21." ...... AGAIN THE GUY PENTECOST AND OTHERS ARE FOREVER TELLING YOU THIS LAST TRIBULATION OF THE AGE IS 7 YEARS IN LENGTH. THEY MISUNDERSTAND DANIEL 9 AND THE 70 WEEK PROPHECY - AND THEY MUST RELY ON THAT PROPHECY TO GET THEIR 7 YEARS, RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH BEFORE OF MID-WAY OF THE 7 YEARS, FOR THE BOOK OF REVELATION ONLY TALKS ABOUT 42 MONTHS, 1260 DAYS, A TIME, TIMES, AND HALF A TIME. NO 7 YEAR PERIOD IS MENTIONED IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION - Keith Hunt Scripture consistently describes the Great Tribulation as mostly Jewish and characterized not by the wrath of men but by the wrath of God. It is pictured as "the time of Jacob's trouble," not the church's trouble. It cannot begin until after the rapture of the church. ...... UTTERLY FALSE! YES JACOB OR ISRAEL (WHO ARE MORE THAN THE JEWS, WHO ARE ONLY 3 TRIBES OF THE TWELVE) WILL EXPERIENCE THE GREAT TRIBULATION, BUT JESUS (IN MATTHEW, MARK, LUKE, AND REVELATION) CLEARLY SHOWS SOME CHRISTIAN SAINTS WILL ALSO EXPERIENCE PERSECUTIONS AND DEATH, DURING THE GREAT TRIBULATION. ONCE MORE IT IS UTTERLY FALSE TO TEACH THE GREAT TRIBULATION CANNOT BEGIN UNTIL AFTER THE "RAPTURE" OF THE CHURCH - Keith Hunt 4. The Argument of the Historic Fulfilment of Daniel 9:24-27 Some posttribulationists hold to a historic fulfilment of Daniel 9:24-27, including the seventieth week of that prophecy. They believe the 70 weeks are a continuous, successive, unbroken period of years that ended with the death of Stephen or the destruction of Jerusalem. This is not the position of all posttribulationists, but those who do hold this view see no gap between weeks 69 and 70 of Daniel's prophecy. In contrast to this view, Gundry (p.189), himself a posttribulationist, argues we cannot spiritualize Israel ("your people") to refer to a spiritual Israel inclusive of Gentiles without destroying the plain sense of the passage. The destruction of Jerusalem, for example, deals with Israel as a nation. In addition, "the finishing of Israel's transgression, the purging of her iniquity, and the bringing of her everlasting righteousness have not reached completion. Paul writes of these as still in the future for Israel (Rom. 11:25-27)." ...... THIS PROPHECY OF DANIEL IS CORRECTLY EXPLAINED IN A NUMBER OF STUDIES ON THIS WEBSITE. THE "SECRET RAPTURE" TEACHERS HAVE IT ALL WRONG. BUT TO GET THEM TO SEE THEIR FUNDAMENTAL FOLLY IS ASKING FOR A MIRACLE - Keith Hunt 5. The Argument That the Resurrection Occurs After the Tribulation Posttribulationists argue that the doctrine of resurrection proves a posttribulation rapture. They argue that the first resurrection is associated with the coming of the Lord, the conversion of Israel, and the inauguration of the kingdom (Luke 14:14-15; Revelation 20:46). According to this argument, the rapture must be posttribulational because the resurrection occurs after the Tribulation. This argument is based on the conclusion that the resurrection of Revelation 20:5-6, which is there called "the first resurrection," is the same resurrection referred to in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. The major weakness of this argument is the equating of "the first resurrection" or the resurrection of the Old Testament saints with the resurrection occurring at the rapture. The Scriptures identify at least four distinct resurrections, the first chronologically being the resurrection of Christ (Matthew 28:1-7). The expression "first resurrection" can therefore be understood only within the immediate context of the passage since Christ's resurrection was first. The resurrection in Revelation 20:5-6 is "first" in that it comes 1000 years prior to the fourth and final resurrection, but it is also "third" in that it follows the resurrection of Christ and the resurrection of the saints at the rapture. ...... THE NT TEACHES TWO ONLY RESURRECTIONS TO GLORY - THE VERY FIRST BEING CHRIST'S RESURRECTION. THE SECOND IS AT THE COMING OF CHRIST, THE SEVENTH TRUMPET. PUTTING VERSE WITH VERSE, MAKING IT SIMPLE, SO A CHILD CAN UNDERSTAND, IS SIMPLE, BUT "DANIEL 9" AND "SEVEN YEARS LEFT" AND "SECRET RAPTURE" TEACHERS, JUST CANNOT MAKE IT SIMPLE, THEY HAVE TO FORCE A COMPLICATED MANY RESURRECTIONS DOCTRINE. THE ONLY OTHER RESURRECTION TAUGHT IN THE NT (LARGE SCALE RESURRECTION) IS AT THE END OF REVELATION 20. IT IS JUST THAT SIMPLE! Keith Hunt Walvoord (The Rapture Question, p.154) observes: "The Old Testament saints are never described by the phrase 'in Christ.' The fact that the 'voice of the archangel' - Israel's defender - is heard at the rapture is not conclusive proof that Israel is raised at that time .... The best answer is to concede the point that the resurrection of Old Testament saints is after the tribulation, but to divorce it completely from the translation and resurrection of the church .... If the translation of the church is a different event entirely, [the argument] proves nothing." ...... NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH. JOB WILL BE WITH GOD WHEN GOD WILL STAND ON THE EARTH. PUT JOB 14:10-15 WITH JOB 19:25,26 AND 1 COR.15 "CHANGE" (1 COR.15:50-54) WITH LAST TRUMP, AND FIND THE LAST TRUMP IN REVELATION 11, AND MATTHEW 24:29-31, AND YOU HAVE THE SIMPLE PLAIN TRUTH. THE SAINTS OF OLD ARE TO BE MADE PERFECT WITH THE SAINTS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT - SEE HEBREWS 11:39,40 WITH 1 THES.4:13-18 AND ZECHARIAH 14. IT IS SO SIMPLE, BUT "SECRET RAPTURISTS" HAVE TO MAKE IT ALL SO COMPLICATED - Keith Hunt Finally, perhaps the word "first" did not mean "first in time" but "first in kind," that is, the resurrection was of God's people (whether before or after the Tribulation). The "second of a different kind" involved the unsaved (Revelation 20:11-15). ...... AGAIN, SUCH PEOPLE CANNOT JUST ADD TWO AND TWO. THE SIMPLICITY WOULD BE BEYOND THEIR COMPLICATED MIND - Keith Hunt 6. The Argument of the Parable of the Wheat and Tares The parable of the wheat and the tares is sometimes used to defend the posttribulational cause. Posttribulationists suggest that Christ spoke of the wheat and the tares growing together "until the harvest" (Matthew 13:30) and suggest a general judgment at the end of the age. Commenting on this text, posttribulationists generally argue that there will be no judicial separation of the righteous and the wicked until the final harvest. This, then, is taken to prove the fact that the rapture will not occur until the end of the Tribulation. However, the purpose of the kingdom parables in Matthew 13 is to record not the history of the church but rather the history of the kingdom in mystery form-Christendom. These parables clearly predict Israel's rejection of the Messiah (the King) and the present development of professing Christendom. They are not intended to illustrate the timing of the rapture or the final judgment. ...... I HAVE NEVER USED SUCH PARABLES TO PROVE THE TRUTH. THE SIMPLE TRUTH IS WITH THE VERSES I HAVE GIVEN YOU ABOVE, AND IN DETAIL IN OTHER STUDIES ON THIS WEBSITE AND THIS BLOG- Keith Hunt 7. The Argument of Fruit Perhaps the weakest argument, from a theological position, is that based upon fruit, that is, the apparent results of a doctrinal teaching. Nevertheless, some posttribulationists have attempted to argue that pretribulationism is divisive and lacks a social conscience for the world. This, however, is convincingly refuted by the spiritual, moral, social, and political activities of pretribulationists such as Jerry Falwell and Tim LaHaye. In general, pretribulationists have shown evangelistic fervor, missionary zeal, social concern, and intense spiritual commitment in light of the fact that Jesus could come at any moment. ...... I HAVE NEVER USED SUCH ARGUMENTS, WHICH ARE FOOLISHNESS. IF YOU WANT TO COMPARE THINGS FOR THE FOOLISHNESS OF IT ALL. THEN THE ONLY TWO CHURCH ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE GROWING IN ANY MEASURE TODAY, ARE THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH (AND THEY COULD CARE LESS ABOUT ALL OF THIS) AND THE OTHER IS THE SEVENTH DAY ADVENTISTS, AND ALL THE CHURCHES OF GOD SEVENTH DAY, WHICH TEACH AS I DO ON THIS MATTER - Keith Hunt PRETRIBULATIONAL SUPPORT The ultimate answers to the arguments of posttribulationism are the overwhelmingly affirmative reasons for believing in the pretribulational rapture: 1. the contrast of the events involving the rapture and the second coming. 2. the need for time after the rapture for the judgment seat of Christ and the marriage of the Lamb in heaven. 3. the necessity for the removal of the restrainer and the revelation of the man of sin-that is, the Antichrist. 4. the uniqueness of the church as the body of Christ. 5. God's promises to keep the church from the Great Tribulation. 6. the absence of the church between Revelation 4:1 and 19:11. All these factors point to a pretribulational coming of Christ. "Even so come Lord Jesus" (Revelation 22:20). ELMER TOWNS ....................... NOTE: THE ULTIMATE ANSWER IS NOT WHAT THE AUTHOR GIVES. THE ANSWER IS IN THE SCRIPTURES. GOD'S WORD IS TRUTH (JOHN 17:17) NOT THE IDEAS OF MEN, OR THE LACK OF PUTTING VERSE WITH VERSE. I HAVE GIVEN YOU MANY STUDIES ON THIS WEBSITE TO DIS-PROVE THE IDEAS OF A "SECRET RAPTURE" OR A "TWO-PHASED" COMING OF CHRIST, OR A CONTRIVED MANY RESURRECTIONS, ALL MIXED UP WITH A 7 YEAR GREAT TRIBULATION AND SOME RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH SOMEWHERE EITHER BEFORE OR MID-WAY, DURING THOSE 7 SUPPOSED LAST YEARS OF THIS AGE. BUT TO PRESS THE POINT HOME I WILL ANSWER THE ABOVE 6 POINTS. 1. There is no contrast between the so-called rapture (which is the resurrection of the saints both dead and alive) and second coming. Both events happen at the same time, on the same day. Other studies of mine, expound this truth in detail. 2. The judgment seat of Christ and the marriage of the Lamb with the "church" is NOT in heaven to begin with. Not one Scripture can be found to support that idea, it is an idea of men, not the Bible. Secondly, the saints on the sea of glass, with Christ, at His coming, resurrected to be taken by the angels to the AIR, to the CLOUDS, to be with Christ (Mat.24:29-31 with 1 Thes.4:13-18) as told in the book of Revelation, is the marriage and the judgment, where saints are given their rewards. All fully expounded upon in my many other studies on prophecy. The idea that it must take weeks, months, or as much as YEARS, for the marriage of the Lamb and the rewards given to saints, is totally HUMAN thinking. A day can be a thousand years, or a thousand years as a day, to the Lord, that statement is found in the book Peter. Time with God, is not as with men. God can hand out rewards millions of times faster than men can do. A marriage of the Lamb to the church and handing out rewards to the saints of the church, can all be done in ONE DAY with God!! God lives in a dimension that humans can never understand while in the flesh. The saints of the church will not be in the flesh when they are on the sea of glass with Christ at His coming. 3. The fundamental prophets have no clue about the prophecies of the anti-christ or the last days. I have given you on this Website all the prophecies as they WILL be fulfilled in the last years of this age. 4. The uniqueness of the church has nothing per se to do with the order of events in the last years of this age. The uniqueness is rather that the saints of old and new Testaments will rise in a resurrection/change from mortal to immortal, at the coming of Christ, which will be at the last trumpet sound, and will then be the very literal born Sons of God, to look like Christ is today (1 John 3:1-3). Now that is truly unique!! 5. There is a promise to keep SOME of the church from the great tribulation. You can find that promise in Luke 21:36. And you can find the "rest of the story" in Revelation 12. Which is a prophecy for the "church" not for Jews, but the church of God. SOME at the end time will find a place of safety, not in heaven, but in the WILDERNESS (just as it was during the Dark Ages, when the Roman Catholic church rode the Beast, and will again for one more time) and Satan will then go after them "who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Just as it has always been, some escape tribulation, and some do not. Peter, Paul and others died for the faith, the apostle John lived to an old age. Such is the recorded history of the people of God in all ages since the world began. 6. The absence of the church between Revelation 4:1 and 19:11? The author must have a blind fold on when reading Revelation. The 144,000 are sealed with the Spirit of God, the vast multitude that cannot be numbered, that come THROUGH the tribulation, and stand on the sea of glass (see Revelation 7) ARE PART OF THE SAINTS AND CHURCH OF GOD!! Unless you cannot read English or have some twisted theology, the saints of Revelation 7 are clearly saints of the resurrection and are with Christ upon His return. But the fundamental folly of the "secret rapturists" will no doubt have some mish-mash of mind to tell you these people in Revelation 7 are not part of the saints of the church. Then we have Revelation 6 and the fifth seal, that once more clearly tells you more people from the church, or from those that have the "word of God and the testimony which they held" are to be killed. How do you not acknowledge those people are from the true church or saints of God? Well the fundamental boys will have another folly of theology, to do it I'm sure. They've been hanging on to their "secret rapture" and "two phased" coming of the second coming of Christ, for over a 100 years now. They will not let it go, not until the Great Tribulation is in full swing, and they find themselves still in the flesh on this earth. Revelation 6 and the seals. Anyone acquainted with Matthew 24 and Revelation 6, will know there is a striking similarity. Even some fundamentalists can see it. Wow, give them a gold star! The fifth seal is the persecution and even killing of saints in the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24. The sixth is the heavenly signs to come AFTER the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24. Then in Revelation 6:17 we have the" great day of the wrath of God." But before it all begins 144,000 from the tribes of Israel and a vast multitude, will be sealed by the living God. They are called "servants of our God" in verse 3. Either they are part of the Church of God, the saints of the New Testament, or English and common sense is thrown out the window. And either Revelation 12 is about the saints of God, those that keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ (which throws out the idea that these are Jews, for the Jews do not have the "testimony of Jesus Christ. Have you not heard, they hate His name, and disown family members who accept Jesus as personal Savior), or again English means nothing, and as sceptics and atheists say, "You can make the Bible say anything you desire it to say." Who on earth (well actually on the mount Sion, with Christ), are those in Revelation 14, if not true saints of the church of God? They are called "redeemed" and "first-fruits of God and to the Lamb." Is it logical to believe these 144,000 are something other than the redeemed of saints? Common reading of the NT would with its language about "redeemed" prove this group are part of the saints and church of God. Verse 12 of chapter 14. Right among the three angel's messages and the fall of the end time Babylon, is the mention of "the saints" - those who have patience and keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Are they something other than "saints" or members of the church? Well if English can be understood, they are clearly "saints" and the word "saint" is used many times in the NT in identifying the members of the church of Christ. Just look up the word "saint" in Strong's Concordance and see how and where it is used. It does not take having to have a "rocket science degree" to find "saint" = "person in the church of God" as used in the NT. Who are those on the sea of glass in Revelation 15:1-4? They had gotten the victory over the Beast, over its image, over its mark, and over its number. Are they angels? Do angels have to get victory over the Beast? You should be able to see with just a simple reading of the book of Revelation up to this chapter 15, that the ones having the victory of the Beast and its image and mark, are those people who had to be on earth when the Beast was ruling. What victory is it if you are up in heaven when the Beast is ruling on earth? It should be logically obvious these ones on the sea of glass are people, saints, of the church, who got victory over the Beast, when the Beast was ruling in the last number of years of this age. Who are the ones that Jesus says to in Revelation 18:4, "Come out of her my people, that you be not partakers of her sins, that you receive not of her plagues?" Are they angels? I think not! are they Jews? No, there is no evidence of that at all in the context before or after. I submit to you, that reading Revelation up to this chapter 18, you can only come to the conclusion that "my people" are the saints, the members of the church of Christ. They are to put sin away, come out of the Babylon of sin, the false Beast system, get victory over the Beast and sin that it teaches and practices. What is this folly that the "church" is not mentioned from Revelation 4:1 to 19:11. And indeed the saints are mentioned in chapter 19:8. Such is the fundamental folly of the fundamental teachers of the "secret rapture" and the "two phased" coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. NOW IT'S TIME FOR ME TO WORK ON GIVING YOU A STUDY ON EVERY VERSE IN THE NT ON THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST, AND LAYING BARE THE FOLLY OF THIS "IMMINENT" TEACHING, THE FOLLY OF TEACHING JESUS CAN COME AT ANY SECOND, THE FOLLY THAT PRESENTS ITSELF AS THE "SECRET RAPTURE" INVISIBLE FIRST PHASE OF THE MESSIAH'S RETURN TO EARTH. THIS STUDY WHEN FINISHED WILL BE CALLED "IMMINENT RETURN OF CHRIST." . Keith Hunt, May, 2009