The Meltdown Continues: SATAN'S FATE— HELL-FIRE

Satan's Fate - Hell-fire?

Questions and Answers

THE FATE OF SATAN

ORIGIN OF HELL-FIRE

As far as the Ezekiel text being in the past tense or not, I'm

not sure. I'd already looked at several translations parallel at

bible.cc and so already saw that for myself. However, why are you

now arguing that it's a past thing, when before you argued that

it has not happened yet, because in Job Satan appeared before

God? You are arguing heavily for Satan not being destroyed for

good, but you are arguing two totally different things concerning

this same passage of scripture, just to prove your point. You

tried proving it before with the previous argument, and now

you're saying it says something different to prove it.

Good question, and it bring up an important point of always

"growing in grace and knowledge."

I'm not doing so much as a contradiction with myself, but an

"alteration" of teaching. For decades I used my old KJV (which I

still do, as it is all marked up etc.), and in the old KJV it is

presented in the "future" tense. The challenge of studying this

passage again .... well I found out that most, if not all of my

12 or so Bible translations in my personal library, puts it in

the "past" tense, AS DOES the NEW KJV. The NKJV has: "There I

cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of God, and I

destroyed you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the fiery

stones."

I recommend everyone have the NKJV, for one reason (of many) they

have CORRECTED past errors!

When Ezekiel was inspired to write his book, God is telling us

here, about the covering cherub, that it was ALREADY a PAST MOVE

on God's part, He had already (by the time anyone would read the

book of Ezekiel) CAST Satan out from His throne, from the stones

of fire. Now what this means in conjunction with the what is

written in the book of Job is this: The position that the

covering cherub had, over the very throne of God, was taken from

him, that covering beautiful cherub, became the Devil. Satan,

until his rebellion, had access to God's throne, that few created

beings would have. He was one of the "inter circle" beings shall

we say, that could go directly to God's throne. Upon his

rebellion and his march up to heaven from earth (Isaiah 14) with

angels that had become demons, and the war that ensued

(Revelation 12 and remember Jesus saying, "I saw Satan fall from

heaven" - the special position of Ezekiel 28 was taken away. I

believe Satan in the beginning of the book of Job, in going to

heaven, it was not the very throne room of God the Father. I

believe Satan talked to God in the form of the SECOND member of

the Godhead - the one that became the Jesus Christ of the NT. I

believe the Bible makes it clear that God the Father cannot have

evil in His presence; I think one of the main reasons why the

Father will not come to earth until AFTER the 1,000 years, is

when sin and death is totally gone from the equation.

We must always be growing in grace and knowledge, always ready to

admit mistakes of understanding. We should not dislike new truth

or being corrected. I'm glad the "experts" on Hebrew and Greek

are willing to correct errors, the text in Ezekiel, from the old

KJV to the NewKJV corrects errors they found; good for them, for

that shows their heart is right in revisiting the Hebrew and

Greek MSS.

Hence we must also be willing to see the errors and teach what

new light is given to us.

Satan cannot be tormented "day and night" for eternity after the

new heavens and earth, because there will not be any "night" then

(Rev. 22:5). So, maybe it is how I said, that he will be

tormented day and night until the age of ages.

The Bible is written in many different ways, not understanding or

admitting those ways, will lead people into many wrong ideas,

some I've seen over the past decades, have been way out in planet

Pluto orbit. The well known fellow E.W. Bullinger knew very well

that the Bible contained many "figures of speech" and other types

of language types that we today still use in our telling of

things. He was so impressed with this fact in the writing of the

Bible that he wrote a 1,000 page book called "Figures of Speech

in the Bible." I have it in my personal library.

These different types of speech are given fancy names or

categories. One type of Bible speech is a "double emphasis" talk.

I'll come back to that in a moment.

First, a fact of the Bible is that it often speaks from

the "human point of view" - so we have "when the sun went down"

and the like. Of course technically the sun does not go down as

such, but the turning of our earth makes it look like the sun

goes down in the West. So things as we seem to encounter them are

used in the Bible, and the writer throws away the "technical"

stuff - this is pretty common use of language that we may use

today as we write or speak. Now, back to "double emphasis" -

along with "as we see it today" language; yes the two types of

speech can be used together. This is what is happening here in

Revelation 20:10. First, John is inspired to use "as the way we

would count it in the present" - so he writes "tormented day and

night." We are still in the present time. We are not yet in the

future time of when there will be no need of the sun because as

Rev. 21 and 22 says, God the Father and Christ are the light -

we're not in that time space yet. We are still in the present,

with day and night. We may talk among ourselves today using

similar language to another human person, to get a point across,

that "this or that" will go on .... "day and night until the cows

come home." Ah, see how I used two types of figures of speech in

one phrase. So human language has developed down through the

millenniums.

Then, John enters the "double emphasis" of types of speech, he

goes on to say, "until the ages of the ages."

So in one phrase we have TWO figures of speech! One is more the

everyday now talk, of day and night, to tell us "continual"

length. We could say to a very good friend, "You can count on me,

day and night." And our friend knows what we are meaning by that

figure of speech - until death do us part - hummm, another

figure of speech.

Then John, really wants to nail it down (wow ... another figure

of speech) for us, and says, "until the ages of the ages."

I've gone over that phrase as used in the book of Revelation

already.

I see here in Revelation 20:10 no way around getting around that

God wants us to know Satan ain't going to get off so lightly

(yep, another figure of speech), as being chained up for 1,000

years, and then allowed to come out of the bottomless pit, bring

horrid deception again for a short time, and then only get

destroyed in some fire. I see no justice in that penalty for him,

for what he's done on earth, and in the universe. I will have

more to say about that later.

As far as your comment about humans being "likened" to them (the

angels?), you've lost me. The bible clearly says that the wicked

humans will be cast out into outer darkness. That is what our

Lord said. How can you say it doesn't apply to them, when it's

whom the Lord was speaking about. He didn't even mention the

angels then.

All I'm saying is that in Jude, you have false deceptive persons

that yes, as you've said Jesus said, will be cast out into outer

darkness, which by the rest of the Bible, we know Jesus meant

they will suffer the second death; being destroyed in the lake of

fire (end of Rev.20), and will not continue to live in any way.

The connection in Jude with "wandering stars" is the connection

of evil, sin, wickedness, deception. That is the connection of

"wandering stars" and false teachers. They both are false and

evil. Now, that connection, as I've already said, is IF

"wandering stars" is meaning "angels" (as interpreted by Rev.1)-

and in this case "fallen angels." I've said that this is only one

POSSIBLE explanation of Jude 13.

You said the angels are not locked in chains of darkness, but

they can roam about. SOME may be roaming about, but there were

certain ones who are locked in the abyss for certain sins they

did. They cannot go anywhere, until the angel with the key

unlocks them during the tribulation (Rev.9:1).

Any "type" or "analogy" can be used at any one time, for any

number of teachings, to get a point across to our minds. Rev.9:1

from the context has nothing to do specifically with any demons.

The "bottomless pit" certainly in the book of Revelation is only

used for "evil" or anything that is not good for us. Here in

chapter 9:1 it is used for the FIFTH trumpet, the 6th trumpet

coming in verse 13. The 5th trumpet will be the Resurrected Holy

Roman Empire to come in the last days and make great destruction

on this earth. In verse 11 we see the king over them is the king

of the bottomless pit (standing for evil, sin, destruction) -

namely Satan the Devil. But technically, at least here in

Revelation, it says nothing about demons being in, or coming out

of the bottomless pit. I will say, that it is quite possible,

SOME demons are under some "restrain" as otherwise all hell would

have broken loose from the creation of mankind. The demons do a

mighty horrible work as it is with humans down through the

millenniums, I would hate to see what they would do if some are

not restrained.

So, yes, those angels are locked up right now for the sins they

committed. The evil spirits that Jesus sent into pigs begged him

not to send them to the abyss. So, some are there; some are not.

It's the same place where Satan will be locked up for one

thousand years during the reign of the children of God.

Certainly, the "bottomless pit" phrase is used for the chaining

up of Satan at the beginning of the 1,000 years (Rev.20). And as

stated I have no trouble with SOME demons in that restrained pit,

until maybe the very last 42 months of this age, when indeed all

hell will break loose on this earth, as we have never experienced

it before, or ever will again. And just saying that, and trying

to think about it, my mind hits a brick wall (another figure of

speech) - I cannot imagine what it will be like.

You said the lake of fire burns up the earth, but the beast and

false prophet are thrown into it before the thousand-year reign

of Christ and the saints on this physical earth. It's not

burning up the earth then.

Okay. I need to take some time to put it all chronologically.

Let's begin with the so-called "hell fire" that preachers have

preached about for hundreds of years, trying to scare the pants

off people (another figure of speech - we sure have many of

them).

Where all this talk about "hell-fire" comes from is the "gehenna

fire" of the New Testament. Yes the NT speaks, Jesus spoke about,

a "gehenna fire" that would indeed destroy people!

Here is what the "Pictorial Encyclopeda of the Bible" says about

"gehenna":

Quote:

GEHENNA (gihena) (lit., "valley of Hinnom, Eng.VSS hell") In the

NT the final place of punishment of the ungodly. The word de-

rives from the Heb. (which they give - Keith Hunt) the Valley of

Hinnom, or more fully, the Valley of the son(s) of Hinnom,

situated to the S or SW of Jerusalem, usually identified with the

Wadi-er-Rababi. It is first referred to in Joshua 15:8 and 18:16

as marking the boundary between the inheritance of the tribes of

Judah and Benjamin. (In recent times, until the Arab-Israeli war

in June 1967, it was divided in two by the border between Israel

and Jordan.) During the reigns of Ahaz and Manasseh, at Topheth

(prob. lit. "fire-place") in the Valley of Hinnom, human

sacrifices were offered to the heathen god Molech (Molech; 2

Chron 28:3; 33:6). Josiah in his reforms "defiled" Topheth and

thus prevented any further use of the valley for that purpose (2

Kings 23:10). Jeremiah (7:30-33) announces that the name of the

valley will be changed to the "Valley of Slaughter" because when

the Lord judged Judah for her sins, the number of dead would be

so great that they would be thrown into the valley to lie there

without burial. ***In later times the valley seems to have been

used for burning refuse, and also the bodies of criminals.***

From about the 2nd cent. B.C., the Valley of Hinnom came to be

thought of as the place of final punishment for the enemies of

God. This arose either from the earlier associations or from

Jeremiah's prophecy or from the later practice just referred to.

The Book of Enoch is the earliest witness to this (but cf. even

in the OT itself, Isaiah 30:33; 66:24). In later thought, Gehenna

was thought of as the eschatological fire of hell, still prob.

considered as a place (esp. in Rabbinic thought), but now no

longer locally outside Jerusalem. The term is used in the NT in

this sense. J. Jeremias stresses the sharp distinction in the NT

(as in pre-NT Judaism) between Hades and Gehenna-Hades receiving

the ungodly only for the intervening period between death and

resurrection, Gehenna being their place of punishment after the

last judgment. Apart from James 3:6, where the tongue, compared

to a fire that sets on fire the whole cycle of nature, is said to

be itself set on fire by Gehenna, the remaining eleven

occurrences are all in the synoptic gospels.

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus warned that even mental or

verbal infringements of the commandments render one liable to Ge-

henna (Matt 5:20), and He said: "If your right eye causes you to

sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose

one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into

hell" (Matt 5:29f.). He also held out the threat of Gehenna to

any who "causes one of these little ones who believe in me to

sin," and repeated the warning already quoted above (Mark

9:42-47; Matt 18:9). In Matthew 10:28, cf. Luke 12:5, He told His

disciples to fear none but God, who alone is able to cast both

body and soul into Gehenna.

The last two occurrences are in Matthew 23, in our Lord's

vigorous denunciation of the Pharisees. In v.15, He accused them

of so indoctrinating any proselyte that they cause him to become

twice as much a child of Gehenna as themselves. The Hebraism

"child (or,'son') of Gehenna" means one fit for and doomed for

Gehenna. In v.33, He concluded: "You serpents, you brood of

vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?"

The other NT writing;, although not using the word "Gehenna," use

equivalent expressions - of judgment, wrath, fire, destruction,

perdition, Tartarus, the lake of fire (q.v.)

There is evidence among the rabbis, both those of the strict

school of Shammai and the more liberal school of Hillel, of

beliefs that consignment to Gehenna will either result in

annihilation or will be purgatorial, and therefore will be

ultimately followed by blessedness. These beliefs are not

explicit in the NT.

BIBLIOGRAPHY. A. Edersheim. LT, 11 (1886), 791-796; BDB (1906),

161; SBK, IV (1928), 10291118; R. A. Stewart, Rabbinic Theology

(1961), 152-160;. NBD (l962), 390, 518. 519, 527; J. Jeremias in

TDNT, I (1964), 657, 658.

R. E. DAVIES

End Quote

Right, do you notice it. "Gehenna" was the fire dump of Jerusalem

- but also became the fire to destroy the dead criminals. So it

was used by Jesus to typology the final second death of fiery

destruction for sinners (who will not repent) as Revelation 20

shows us.

Now, what many do not see is that at the very last day, the day

that Jesus will return to fight His enemies at the battle of

Armageddon (Rev.16); the beast and false prophet are THROWN INTO

the lake of fire (Rev.19:19-20). these are literally two human

beings. They will be cast into a literal physical lake of fire -

the "gehenna" ONCE MORE of Jerusalem! Yes, yes, the very fire

that once was the "dump fire" of Jerusalem, will be again brought

into very being. Jesus, will have that "gehenna" fire of

Jerusalem established once more, and the first people into it,

alive the word says (a fitting punishment for such evil persons),

will be the "beast" man and the "false prophet." Their end will

not be like the men in the armies that come against Christ -

whose end is describes in Zechariah 14 - their flesh melting off

their bones. The "beast" and "false prophet" will be cast into

this lake of fire as it is re-established at Jerusalem, as in

days of old.

This is a good time to explain to you that sin shall at times

break out on earth during the 1,000 year reign of Christ and the

saints. Human nature is capable of sin, WITHOUT the Devil or

demons being involved. We can sin, we can rebel against God, with

no help from Satan or any demon. Sin - serious sin - unrepentant

sin - will not be at all common during the 1,000 years. Isaiah

was inspired to write that in that age there will be "This is the

way, walk you in it" correction for physical people of the earth

(see Isa.30:21 and all my expounding on the book of Isaiah). But

for those serious unrepentant sinners during that age .... well

see Isaiah 66:15-24 and note verse 24. Yes, capital punishment

during the 1,000 year age, will be death, and the bodies of those

dead will be cast into the "gehenna" fire once more at Jerusalem

- it will again be the fire dump of Jerusalem.

Now, it is at the END of the 1,000 year age that Satan will be

let loose, bring deception, a final battle. The Great age of the

White Throne Judgment, and then the SECOND DEATH! Those not found

in the book of life will be cast into the "gehenna" lake of fire

(Rev.20:14-15).

But Revelation does not tell you what is next. God has written

some here and some there, you have to read, to search the

Scriptures .... it is found over in the book of 2 Peter.

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count

slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any

should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the

day of the Lord will come (this is a different time of the "day

of the Lord" - as Peter goes on to tell us) as a thief in the

night; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,

and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and

the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that

all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of person ought

you to be in all holy conduct and godliness. Looking for and

hasting unto the coming of the day of God (another time of the

day of God), wherein the heavens being on fire shall be

dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.

Nevertheless, we, according to His promise, look for a NEW heaven

and a NEW earth wherein dwells righteousness" (2 Peter 3:9-13).

Ah ah, do you see how we have put it all together in

chronological order? When all the verses are collected the

picture comes whole and is seen. Jesus on His coming re-

institutes the Jerusalem "gehenna" fire once more, the beast and

false prophet are thrown in at the beginning of the new age. The

fire of the Jerusalem dump burns during the 1,000 year age. All

serious unrepentant sinners during the age to come, face capital

punishment - death - they are then thrown into the "gehenna fire"

to burn up their bodies. At the end of it all - death waits for

the unrepentant sinner - they are cast into the lake of gehenna

fire. Satan and the demons are there also. They cannot be hurt by

physical fire. But they feel indeed tormented as they see that

sin will have an end; no more will they be able to deceive people

and encourage sin in human beings. What a torment indeed for

them.

The fire will engulf the entire earth, all physical things will

melt away, be gone. It is now time for the New heaven and the New

earth to come into existence. God the Father will come to earth

to be with His children, and we shall have Revelation 21 and 22

fulfilled.

It will also be the time for Jude 6 - the judgment of Satan and

the demons.

Whatever the final judgment is, we are told Satan will be

tormented .... for the ages of the ages - Revelation 20:10.

WHY I BELIEVE IT IS JUST FOR SATAN

TO BE PUNISHED TO THE AGES OF THE AGES

At the present writing (March 2010) I am watching the Canadian 30

hour production of "Canada - A People's History." It was done

about 10 years ago - the greatest work of the Canadian CBC

(English and French team-work) ever undertaken. The history is

all from records, diaries, people who lived and wrote in their

day. It was a research of many of Canada's best historians. This

is the story of how Canada came to be Canada, especially of

course from after the Vikings in 1,000 A.D. came, dwelt for a

while, and then left Canada.

What is (and always had been for all nations and Empires) most

SHOCKING is what humans have done to humans, not just one army of

men facing another army of men, and killing each other. But what

is brought out to the mind in all history, is the HORRIBLE,

gruesome, revolting, vile, hideous, nauseating, detestable, rank,

atrocious, monstrous, and UNSPEAKABLE brutality, that was done to

civilian men, women, and even children, as nations unfolded, as

people moved, set down roots, and as those average innocent

people tried to have "the good peaceful life." Some of the

deathly cruel ways that some were killed, I find too repulsive to

try and explain to you.

Satan the Devil and the demons have had a part in all the sins of

human kind. That is why on the Feast of Atonement the "goat"

selected for to be the goat sent off into the wilderness, had the

sins of all Israel put on his head. This is to show us that Satan

the Devil has a part in all sins. What he and the demons have

indirectly or even directly, put into the minds of human people

as to sin, and even as to HOW to sin, in the manner of sinning

... well only when you see in history brought to life, the

reality of it all begins to grab your heart and mind. And this

has been Satan and the demons' work for thousands of years on

this earth, and who knows for how long the rebellion against God

continued before God made man and woman (maybe millions, nay,

maybe billions of years).

I have to say it again, I think justice is done to torment Satan

for the ages of the ages.

Keith Hunt

March 2010

The Meltdown Continues

Monday, May 13, 2024

SATAN'S FATE— HELL-FIRE— QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

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