A THREAD ON THE LINE OF SATAN AND DEMONS
A FRIEND SENT ME THE FOLLOWING STATEMENTS TO GET MY REPLIES.
"Can demons return to the person whom they left?
ANSWER BY ANOTHER MAN——
Yes, but this is mostly a concern for non-believers who have undergone a deliverance, and haven't accepted Jesus yet. Jesus warns the 'wicked generation' (sinners) that the demon can return with 7 even worse demons. If you are a believer though, and your deliverance has been complete (all the demons kicked out and legal rights have been broken), then this isn't a concern to you. However, if you go back and re-open the door(s) that let the demon in, you are re-welcoming him back in. But if we don't go back and re-punch that hole in our hedge again, we don't have to go around worrying about it returning."
MY ANSWER
Would agree here
"Who are we supposed to cast demons out of?
ANSWER BY ANOTHER MAN——
Although it is possible and sometimes beneficial to cast demons out of unbelievers, the deliverance ministry is geared towards believers for a number of reasons. For one, it's part of the new covenant, which does not apply to unbelievers. Second, without Christ, you cannot remove the legal grounds the demon has in a person, therefore the problem hasn't been solved, it's only been stirred up. Third, Jesus warned that if you cast demons out of an unbeliever (sinner, wicked generation), it will come back with 7 more even worse demons and the man will be far worse then before (Matthew 12:43-45). I believe there are times when it is helpful to cast demons out of unbelievers, but that's not the focus of this ministry, Jesus said that this is children's bread (Matthew 15:26) and it is geared towards setting the believers free from demonic bondage."
MY ANSWER——
If something is not put into the void of "now no demons" then yes the demons can return. So it is of little use if a demon/s are cast out and the individual is not brought to see the void must be filled up with the things of God. So yes the main purpose of say having the gift to cast out demons, is to bring the individual to now fill up on things of God. Maybe in the case of little children the one with the gift of casting out the demon/s would also have to power to say, "And do not return." Children can then learn to move towards God's word and way of life.
"How can a demon dwell within a believer who has the Holy Spirit?
ANSWER BY ANOTHER MAN——
Many believe that anybody who has the Holy Spirit is immune from demonic bondage. This theology usually stems from a faulty belief that the soul (mind) and the spirit are the same things. The moment we are born again, our spirits are reborn and the Holy Spirit is united with our spirit. The soul (mind) of a man is not instantly reborn as the spirit is, but rather we are told to be transformed by the renewing of our minds, which doesn't happen instantly. Our souls is where the dirt lies, and where the demons dwell, not our spirits. Therefore, there is no reason left to believe that a Christian is immune from demonic bondage, because their souls are usually on the dirty side until they are renewed over time.
MY ANSWER——
Really bad theology here. The human individual, is made up of the physical body as a whole; the blood that gives [with air and food and drink] life to the physical body; the human brain; and "the spirit in man" which is from God and united with our brain, to give us unique living, different from any other animal.
The subject of being "born again" is obviously not understood correctly by the writer. On conversion the Spirit of God unites with "the spirit in man" and the person becomes a child of God, but human nature is not destroyed, the pulls of the flesh can still pull.
But as long as the Spirit of God is in the individual demon possession, living inside, can not happen. There is no talk of Christian demon possession in the New Testament.
ANSWER BY ANOTHER MAN——
If the soul and the spirit were the same things, you would instantly be a perfect person, never to sin again, once you are born again.
MY ANSWER——
Bad theology. The soul is life in the blood; the "spirit in man" is separate, and works with the brain. You do not become perfect and never able to sin again when converted [author calls it "born again" - a Protestant fundamentalist phrase not understood by them]; God's Spirit uniting with our "spirit in man" and the brain, we become converted, but can still sin; human nature and Satan/demons do not become extinct, at our conversion, hence we can still sin under temptations from then. Jesus was tempted by Satan to sin, the 40 days in the wilderness time, especially. He resisted.
ANSWER BY ANOTHER MAN——
There would be no 'evil' left in you, no desires to do wrong, and you would hate it bitterly because you would be perfect in your mind/soul and united with God, therefore there would be no room to sin.
MY ANSWER——
Again, mixing up the wrong ideas on body, soul, spirit. All fully explained in detail on my website under "Death...then What?" and other related studies. You will never be perfect until the resurrection day at Christ's coming. Until then, even with the Spirit of God united with the "spirit in man" you can still sin. See 1 John 1 and into chapter 2.
ANSWER BY ANOTHER MAN——
In John 8:31-34, Jesus tells us that even though they were believers, they were held slaves to sin because they were ignorant of the truth;
MY ANSWER——
Technically the Jews Jesus was speaking to, just had a form of "belief" in Him, as He spoke a few sentences later, they were still wanting to kill Him. Context reading is so often ignored and so leads to many false ideas.
ANSWER BY ANOTHER MAN——
This proves that Christians can be in bondage to darkness.
MY ANSWER——
Other Bible NT verses show indeed a Christian can sin [Rom. 7 for starters] - they can come under the darkness of sin, back to 1 John 1 and 2. again.
QUESTION——
If a demon can affect our minds (souls),
MY ANSWER——
The "soul" is not the mind per se..... wrong theology.
QUESTION——
They can do an awfully lot of damage. Look at what mental illness can do to people through affecting the mind!
MY ANSWER——
Mental illness should not be automatically associated with demons. Parts of the brain can often "miss-fire" - not run in a smooth connected manner, and so produce mental sickness.
QUESTION——
They can cause the person to have unspeakable desires, thoughts, emotions, and do unthinkable things!"
MY ANSWER——
The demons are still out there in the Christian world; they do not disappear on conversion. So yes they influence you, try to tempt you like Satan did to Jesus in the 40 days wilderness fasting He did.
And as He said to Peter once, "Get behind me Satan, you speak not the things of God." Full demon possession for a Christian would mean walking away from God, stopping the uniting of God's Spirit with the "spirit in man" - becoming UN-converted.
..........
- Mr. Hunt,
Alright, so you're saying that nobody can cast demons out of a person and then tell them not to return, except in the case of children? I'm guessing this is because demons have the "right" to be in people who willingly avoid following God's ways. God will not give somebody the power to permanently remove demons from these people for this reason. Is this correct?
This is different for children, because they aren't old enough to fully understand and follow God's ways. God will therefore allow a person to cast out demons from a child and tell them not to return, and this power will last until they reach adulthood. Is this correct?
ANSWER
I would say a basic YES correct, on both questions.
I would add, we are not told exactly for question one, in the NT, but from examples, we see people realizing this was from God, and so would have the desire to further want to understand this God, hence via the true servants of God. We must also not forget Satan and his demons can come out of whoever, and then have them believing the false teachings of false prophets empowered by the Satanic forces.
So with that understanding, we see the bottom line is still proving by the Scriptures, who is speaking the truths of God;
for Satan is able to produce miracles, as the false prophet of the book of Revelation will do at the very end time.
Hence someone doing a miracle [as we understand the word - out of the norm of regular life] does NOT automatically mean they are from God and speak and teach the truths of God.
Mr. Hunt
Doesn't Matthew 12:43-45 say that when an unclean spirit LEAVES a man? This might be different from an unclean spirit that's CAST OUT, right? The former might imply a demon who leaves on his own accord. Is this proof that Scripture gives no positive evidence that demons can or cannot return to a person after they're cast out?- ANSWER
Yes Matthew 12:43-45 is probably talking about an unclean spirit that leaves of its own accord.
The demonic world does have freedom within the boundaries God sets; that would including moving
around somewhat at will.
This verse does prove demons can return to a person; and the example Jesus gives is the person is still empty
and without God in their life, and so that demon can also bring other demons with it, and the latter end of the person is worse than before.
Mr. Hunt
Are you sure that this isn't just a parable? Why wouldn't demons be able to invite more demons into a person while still occupying a body? A demon shouldn't have to leave a person before he can bring more demons into that person. They should still be able to communicate with one another. I feel as though there's some figurative language being used here or something.
Also, in the case where a person turns from his evil after having demons cast out of him, what prevents those demons from returning? If they can come back into a person who's still evil, then why not those who aren't evil any longer? There was even a passage where a "child of Abraham" or something was possessed by a demon. If a good person can be possessed by an evil spirit BEFORE being cast out, what changes to make it so an evil spirit can't possess a good person AFTER being cast out? - ANSWER
Your questions are true. First, I do not think this was a parable that had to be understood in some drastic way from what Jesus was giving. So not really a parable, but stating a fact.
Second. I was not trying to say demons could invite other demons ONLY this way. Demons are spirit creatures who can do many many things, as God allows. We have other examples in the Gospels where someone was possessed by MANY demons; true it does not state in the examples if they all came into the individual at the same time, but with the amount of freedom they have, doing this and doing that [book of Daniel gives us indications the spirit world is full of strife..... angels combating demons] it is more than probable that many demons can enter a person at one time. So Jesus in the instance under discussion, was only giving ONE example of what can happen in the demon world, as towards physical beings. Jesus was not limiting anything here, just giving what could be one happening of have a demon cast out, and what freedom that demon has to not only re-enter the void of no spirituality from God in the person, but to also invite other demons to join him. Jesus did not in the Gospels try to give Christians a "book" or "booklet" on ALL the demon world can do. I'm sure the demons are allowed to do many thing with humans, in many different way, at different times. People claiming they were captured and taken by "aliens" may well have happened, but the aliens were demons; many of the un-deniable sightings of what look like "space-craft" from another planet, are demons playing around and deceiving humans. They have deceived millions into accepting "evolution" [evil-solution I call it]; they love to deceive humans in hundreds of ways. So whatever the Gospels give us as to how at times the demons work in different ways, we need to remember they no doubt have many other ways they work, beside what is recorded in the Gospels, or other parts of the Bible.
First "a good person" as you put it, is subjective. What is "good" in one society's eyes may not be in another society. The Pharisees would often claim they were the "children of Abraham" because they were descended from Abraham, but Jesus had other words to say about them [Matt.23] where they were not "good" in Jesus' eyes. But okay let's say generally a person is not "bad" as the standards of the Western world, and a demon can enter them, and go out, or be cast out, then come back, when the individual is still empty, not putting God into their lives. We have covered that. NOW, to answer your question about not coming back into a person no longer "bad" or "evil" but is now a true Christian believer. A true Christian does not have to fear demons, being possessed by them [maybe tempted by them, but that is a vast difference than being possessed], because the SPIRIT of God now is in us, and actually that means the Father and the Son are now in us [see John 14:23]. With THEM being in us, the demons just can not enter; it would be impossible for them to enter the true Christian now having the very nature and power of the Holy Spirit; again BOTH the Father and Christ in us.
I just do not fear the demonic world; I have full assurance no demon/s can enter me. They may try to tempt me; they did to Jesus, who said to them "Get behind me Satan....." But there is not one word by the writers of the New Testament, stating Christians have to always be on guard that a demon does not enter them; tempt them yes, but enter them NO! The subject of demons entering a Christian does not come up at all by the apostles. Silence on the matter here does mean a lot. The apostles were not concerned about being possessed, if so, they surely would have written about it, like: "Now, brethren, be on your guard always that you keep so close to God and Christ, no demon can enter you." Such words cannot be found in the New Testament.
A Christian would have to LEAVE God; become UN-converted, to be open for demon POSSESSION.
WITH THE NATURE OF GOD IN US..... GOD AND CHRIST IN US, WE NEED HAVE NO FEAR THE DEMONS CAN POSSESS US! - Mr. Hunt
CONCERNING LUKE 13...... WOMAN'S BODY DEFORMED BY EVIL SPIRIT.
That's the problem. If she was a SPIRITUAL descendant of Abraham, which the Bible indicates was the case, then how come she was able to be possessed? I thought that demons couldn't dwell in believers. - ANSWER
This is in reference to Luke 13 and the woman with a physical deformity - bent over and could not straighten up.
We here have a theological question……. a woman of "faith" - "daughter of Abraham" [context tells you she was not only a daughter of Abraham physically - seed of Abraham - an Israelite; she was obviously being in the synagogue on the Sabbath day, of the faith of Abraham]. So the question above to me.
We need to understand first, what this was; it was a physical body malfunction, and yes Jesus attributed it to Satan via a "spirit of infirmity" - she was not mentally possessed. And it does not say the spirit was inside her. The spirit had the power, allowed by God, to deform her physical body - bent over and could not straighten up. There is a huge difference in a spirit having [being allowed] power to deform someone, and a spirit inside, possessing the mind as well as the body. The woman could attend church, read, study, think, on God's word. She knew it was the Sabbath day and knew to attend church. Her mind is not in question here, her body is the question to be healed or not healed on the Sabbath day. It is also obvious that at least in Jesus' day spirits from Satan could and were allowed to do this kind of thing; we're not told in the New Testament how often this kind of thing happened. But it could as the context clearly shows.
SECOND: we need to understand the context of all of this. The NT church was not yet founded as it was on Pentecost 30 A.D. There is a huge difference in many ways from the people of God, those with the faith of Abraham, BEFORE 30 A.D. and AFTER Pentecost 30 A.D. It is best illustrated by the NT and the Gospels themselves. Now turn to and read Matthew 18:3; then this very revealing verse - LUKE 22:32!! PETER was not YET CONVERTED in the way Jesus was implying here; the way of Pentecost 30 A.D. The Greek word is number 1994 in Strong's Concordance of the Bible; the same Greek word is used in ACTS 3:19!! JESUS gave proof of and a difference in the children of God, as those around Him THEN, and those who would be CONVERTED at a future time. Peter was a believer, read the Scriptures, attended the synagogue, knew to look for the Messiah..... had the faith of Abraham. All the disciples of Christ were Israelites, from Abraham; all the disciples but one [Judas who betrayed Jesus, may never have had the faith of Abraham, or if so, let it slip from himself] were then "sons of Abraham" by physical decent, and spiritual faith per se. They were like the woman of Luke 13; she was a daughter of Abraham, they were sons of Abraham. BUT they were NOT as they one day WOULD BE...... On and after the day of Pentecost [Acts 2] they were then the NEW TESTAMENT Church of God, in a new unique way, different from the past. Jesus put it to Peter as "when you are converted...." The new way came about on Pentecost [Acts 2]. Things entered a different form and way, to become a New Testament child of God, on and after Pentecost 30 A.D. - Mr. Hunt
We can read the writings of the apostles AFTER Pentecost 30 A.D. and we do not find ANY reference to true Christians under the NEW TESTAMENT conditions, being physically deformed by any spirit being. There is absolute SILENCE on the matter from the apostles. Surely if Satan or any of his spirit helpers, were going around deforming true Christians, one of the apostles would have written about it; I'm pretty sure the apostle Paul would have done so, with comments regarding it, and/or comments to ward-off such attacks. So to me, all this would indicate, the deforming of Christian's in their body, DID NOT CONTINUE!
ANSWER
Now, God could have said, "From this point on, you evil spirits will not have the power to deform the body of my children now the New Testament has arrived." OR, maybe, as the Father and Son were now living in the true Christian under the New Testament terms, it simply was not possible for an evil spirit to literally twist and deform a Christian's body.
As I've stated, a true Christian need not fear "demon possession" - such can not enter and take over the mind/boy of a New Testament child of God.
From the evidence of the writings after Pentecost of 30 A.D. or the lack of it - no writing at all of spirits deforming New Testament Christians after the Pentecost of Acts 2, I would say, it is more than likely that such demonic deforming of Christians never took place.
I can say with full assurance: New Testament true children of God, do not have to fear an evil spirit can deform them, or possess them.
If we are or become deformed, as could happen to NT Christians, it will be to do with "time and chance" as can happen to anyone, and/or our silly fault, in the situation God does not protect us from it happening.
QUESTION
For Matthew 12:43-45, Albert Barnes says that this doesn't prove that demons dwell in dry places. He says that this is just something the Jews believed, but Jesus used this belief in His sermon. What do you think?
ANSWER
There is no indication in the context and Jesus' words that uphold Albert Barnes' position. What Barnes fails to see is the diversity and complexity of the spirit world; in particular the demonic world. There may be, Jesus would indicate it's true, that some demons only feel happy when possessing a physical being. Some demons like to "tempt" people [as satan did to Jesus in the 40 days fasting in the wilderness] - they mainly enjoy, spend their time, at "tempting people" - this gives them a twisted form of joy. Other demons are "miracle" workers, they like to deceive people with miracles [going beyond the normal things in life for humans]. We know from Daniel some evil spirits are at war so to speak, fighting against the Angelic angels - see Daniel 10:1-14. We have seen there were evil spirit/s from Satan who could physically deform people [Luke 13]. There are no doubt demonic spirits that into "music" - they specialize in getting people to write, perform, many kinds of so-called music, that is really wild wild, far-out satanic crap.... like the group KISS put out, dressed in wild paint and clothes; those that have mashed guitars on stage also demonic influenced. There are no doubt demonic spirits in the "movie industry" - influencing minds to make far-out movies that are vulgar, profane, or depicting what is sin as normal and good. There is a world of many varieties of evil spirits, that we could say "specialize" in .... whatever. Albert Barnes I think misses it all in his comments. He just did not see [at least here in his comment] ALL the VARIETY there is in the demonic spirit world..... some specializing in this, others specializing in that, and so on. Some do indeed specialize in literally possessing human individuals.
QUESTION
The idea that demons leave a person, go into the dry places, and then come back into a person implies a time frame. Now, I guess if demons leave on their own accord, they can come back into a person right away. What if demons are cast out by a Christian? How long until they can come back into a person, should that person not change his evil ways? Is Jesus hinting at a time frame for this?
ANSWER
No, I do not think Jesus is concerned here about time. He is again stating just a fact....evil spirit out, finds no real joy for him, for that spirit; decides to re-enter as the door is still open, the person has not become a true Christian. Time with God is not at all like time with us. What could take a number of days with us, can be seconds with the spirit world. What could be seconds with us, God gives days or months. God is in charge of the universe, spirit beings included. Someone having a spirit cast out, may come to God the same few seconds of delivery - come to set their mind on God and want to serve Him. A spirit maybe cast out, and take days for that person to seek God fully. God knows.... so he can grant that time, and not allow the evil spirit to re-enter, while that person comes seeking the God. Then God also knows the heart and mind of people 'delivered from evil spirits' and they have NO intention on seeking God, wanting God, living His way. Then the evil spirit could return in the speed God allows - short or long. We humans would say see the individual delivered and their freedom in body and mind; then we see them in body and mind once more chained with demonic possession - could be minutes could be hours, could be days, could be weeks. All as allowed by the creator God. The time after casting out an evil spirit, should be spent as soon as possible [some individuals may fall down in a drained out body, or fall asleep for a while], to teach the one freed, about the true God and His word, and our true Savior Christ Jesus.
SATAN - the prince of the power of the air (Ephesians 2:1-2)
While we are talking about the demonic world, I need to address the verse above.
This verse is NOT teaching us that Satan has some kind of radio station, or some kind of power that can go all over the earth through the air.
Satan does NOT have a kind of "spirit" like God's Holy Spirit, that can be everywhere at once.
All this verse shows us is that Satan and his demons, are not effected by our air or atmosphere on earth; they can move around our earth freely, and be one second on a side of the earth, and the next split-second even, on the other side of the earth.
It could also mean the Satanic world can use our physical air to come against humanity, i.e. tornados, hurricanes and etc. Not that all such forces come from the domain of Satan, some are just the nature of our planet, and some from the mess humans have made to pollute our planet - global warming, global weather changes, weather forces that are getting more violent and larger and causing so much destruction of various kinds around the earth.
This verse is NOT saying Satan has a "spirit" power that can impregnate people, as God's Holy Spirit can. Such an idea as Satan having such a power is nowhere taught in the Bible.
ANOTHER THING ABOUT EVIL SPIRITS!
The Bible very clearly tells us what happens at death - see the in-depth study on my website called "Death - then What?" We know at death we do not go to heaven or hell or purgatory. We sleep; our "spirit" goes back to God [Ecc.12:9] but that spirit does not think, talk, walk, move about conversing with saints of the past. Jesus made it clear that NO man has ascended up to heaven but Himself [John 3]. There are MANY studies on my website covering this large subject of the Bible.
Now with that truth under our belt [study those studies if you haven't] we have the answer for those people who are "mediums" - who supposedly are communicating or bringing back in mystic vision, loved ones who have died. What these mediums are doing is reaching the demonic spirit world. The demons can "mimic" a loved one passed into death, and either through mystic visions [ghosts in simple language] or speaking through the medium, appear that it is the loved one coming to us.
All such things as recorded in the Bible and in human history, is the work of the demonic world. It is one way they deceive people into believing the "immortal soul" doctrine, with its heaven, hell, and purgatory.
Those with death or near-death experiences, who come back and tell you they went to heaven [adults and children], and ones that get published from what I've seen, never tell you they went to hell, to see souls in pain burning for all eternity. Satan and evil spirits do have the power to give "death visions" as they do have power to give ghost type visions to people alive on earth. All of this is demonic deceptions, deceiving millions, nay a billion and more "Christians" into believing the immortal soul, and if your "good" [be it child or adult] you go to heaven [purgatory if Roman Catholic and there is a question of your salvation] on death. Nothing could be further from the truth.
As I've stated before, all the "extra-terrestrial" sightings, be it space-ships, or captured by "beings from outer-space" then returned to earth, is all the work of the Satanic forces, to deceive people into evolution thinking, and that there are other planets and life-form-beings of space-travel, in the universe who are visiting us at times. Such is also demonic play with human beings - deception upon deception upon deception.
IT IS SAID TO ME——
Alright, you should read Albert Barnes' comments on Matthew 12:43-45. You've completely misunderstood what he was saying about "dry places."
OKAY, WILL SEE WHAT ALBERT BARNES SAYS AND PRINT IT AND COMMENT BELOW!
SPIRITS IN DESERTS? ALBERT BARNES WITH MY COMMENTS
MATT. 12:43-45
43-45. When the unclean spirit &c. ….though for a time they should profess to believe and apparently reform, yet such was the obstinacy of their unbelief and wickedness, that they would soon return to their former course, and become worse and worse. Infidelity and wickedness, like an evil spirit in a possessed man, were appropriately at home in them. If driven out, they would find no other place so comfortable and undisturbed as their bosoms. Everywhere they would be, comparatively, like an evil spirit going through deserts and lonely places, and finding no place of rest.- ANSWER
THAT IS BASICALLY WHAT I SAID; SOME EVIL SPIRITS HAVE TO LIVE IN PEOPLE OR THEY ARE MOST UNHAPPY - Keith Hunt
They would return, therefore, and dwell with them.
ALBERT BARNES—WALKETH THROUGH DRY PLACES: That is, through deserts—regions of country unwatered, sandy, barren, desolate. That our Saviour here speaks according to the ancient belief of the Jews that evil spirits had their abodes in those desolate, uninhabited regions, there can be no doubt; nor can there be any doubt that the Bible gives countenance to the opinion. Thus Re. xviii. 2: "Babylon—is become the habitation of devils and the hold of every foul spirit; that is, has become desolate—a place where evil spirits appropriately dwell. So Is. xiii. 21: " And satyrs shall dance there;" i.e. according to the ancient Greek translation, "devils or demons shall dance there." See also Je. 1. 39. Comp. Notes on Is. xxxiv. 14. De. xxxii. 17.
ANSWER
Jesus gives no account that he is using "Jews ideas" - someone just reading the verse with no thought or knowledge of and about Jews, would of course not think about Jewish beliefs. Some prophetic verse do show evil spirits dwelling in certain destroyed towns, cities; the Revelation one is a prophecy for the future, and what could be better than in the age to come, many demons chained up in the GREAT end-time Babylon. To be there for 1,000 years in the desolate city that has done so much evil in the world, is a fitting place to be chained-up. As stated before, there is no reason to nay say that some demons coming out of people, the demons that specialize in possessing people, go into deserts, dry land; put for a life of experience NOT WITHIN PEOPLE, and as such they are miserable and dried up, not happy, just as it would be for a man to walk through a desert with not enough food or water - Keith Hunt.
BARNES—SEEKING REST AND FINDING NONE . These desolate and dry regions are represented as uncomfortable habitations; so much so, that the dissatisfied spirit, better pleased with a dwelling in the bosoms of men, as affording an opportunity of doing evil, seeks a return there.
THEN HE SAID I WILL RETURN UNTO MY HOUSE. The man is called his house, because the spirit had dwelt in him. He findeth it empty, &c. There is here a continuance of the reference to the dwelling of the spirit in men. The man was called his house. By the absence of the evil spirit the house is represented as unoccupied, or empty, swept, and garnished; that is, while the evil spirit was away, the man was restored to his right mind, or was freed from the influence of the evil spirit. Garnished,. Adorned, put in order, furnished. Applied to the man, it means that his mind was sane and regular when the evil spirit was gone, or he had a lucid interval.- ANSWER
PRETTY WELL AS I ALSO PUT IT; WOULD ARGEE - RESTORED TO SANITY WHEN NO EVIL SPIRIT IN THE PERSON.
BUT....... SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE CHANGED IN THE PERSON'S LIFE TO PREVENT A RETURN OF EVIL, WORSE THAN THE FIRST.
BARNES—Then goeth he, &c. Seeing the state of the man; dissatisfied with a lonely dwelling in the desert where he could do no evil; envious of the happiness of the individual, and supremely bent on wickedness, he resolved to increase his power of malignant influences and to return. He is therefore represented as taking seven other spirits still worse than himself, and returning to his former habitation. Seven denotes a large but indefinite number. It was a favourite number with the Jews, and was used to denote completeness or perfection, or way finished or complete number. See 1 Sa. ii. 5. Comp. Rev. i. 4. Here it means a sufficient number completely to occupy and harass his soul. Even so shall it he with this generation. This shows the scope and design of this illustration. The state of that man was a representation of that generation of men. Much might be done to cure their unbelief, much to reform them externally; but such was the firm hold which the principles of infidelity and wickedness had taken of their minds as their proper habitation, that they would return, after all the means used to reform them, and they would be worse and worse. And this was literally accomplished. After all the instructions and miracles of the Saviour and his apostles; after all that had been done for them by holy men and prophets, and by the judgments and mercies of God; and after all their external temporary reformations—like the temporary departure of an evil spirit from a man possessed—yet such was their love of wickedness that the nation became worse and worse. They increased in crime, like the seven-fold misery and wretchedness of the man into whose bosom the seven additional evil spirits came. They rejected God's messengers, abused his mercies, crucified his Son, and God gave their temple, and capital, and nation into the hands of the Romans, and thousands of the people to destruction. - ANSWER
FULLY AGREE..... THE PARABLE HAD A MEANING FOR THE PRESENT JEWS; IN A SENSE JESUS AMONG THEM, DOING GOD'S WORK WAS CLEANING THEIR MINDS, GETTING RID OF EVIL SPIRITS PLAGUING THEM; BUT THEY WOULD PUT INTO THEMSELVES GOD'S TRUE WAYS AS TAUGHT AND PREACHED BY JESUS......THERE END WAS WORSE.....TO THE DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE AND THE JEWS KILLED AND SCATTERED BY THE ROMAN ARMIES IN 70 AD - Keith
BARNES— It is not proved by this passage that evil spirits actually dwell in deserts. It is proved only that such was the opinion of the Jews; that that opinion was drawn from some expressions in the Bible; and that such expressions were sufficiently clear to justify the Saviour in drawing an argument from them to confound those who firmly believed that such was the case. Nor is there any absurdity in the opinion; for, 1st. There are evil spirits. See Notes on ch. viii 33. 2d. They must exist in some place. 3d. There is as much propriety that they should be located about our earth as anywhere. 4th. The clear doctrine of the Bible is, that many of them have much to do with our world. 5th. It is as reasonable that they should dwell commonly in desolate and uninhabited regions as anywhere else.- ANSWER
WILL AGREE IN THE MAIN! BUT Don't think Jesus was taking some believe of the Jews; Jesus knew, he'd seen it all for thousands of years. There seems no reason to doubt that evil spirits meet in barren, secluded, dry places, where God allows them to plan their plans. Seems fitting that spiritually barren and desolate, dry minds like out in the sun too much, would meet to plan their moves of evil, in dry desolate wildernesses. Certainly not saying all their meeting are done this way; but many certainly could be.
YES THE PARABLE HAS A DUAL MEANING. BUT LOOK AT IT THIS WAY; THE MAN WAS REAL; THE SPIRIT WAS REAL, THE EVIL SPIRIT INSIDE THE PERSON; THE EVIL SPIRIT COMES OUT - ALL LITERALLY HAPPENED IN THE NEW TESTAMENT. THE SPIRTI TALKS TO OTHER SPIRITS - SURE THEY CAN INDEED; SPIRITS GOING BACK INTO A PERSON - FOR SURE THAT CAN HAPPEN. HENCE ALL LITERAL SO FAR; WHY BECOME UN-LITERAL? THE SPIRITS CAN GO TO DRY DESERT PLACES, SEEKING REST AND FINDING NONE..... LITERAL AS ALL THE OTHER PARTS CAN BE LITERAL IN THE EVIL SPIRIT WORLD - THE MAN DOES NOT REPLACE THE VOID WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD; THE EVIL SPIRITS CAN RETURN, EVEN MORE OF THEM - ALL LITERAL ALSO.
Mr. Hunt
Now with everything you've said, would you take Matthew 12:43-45 as Jesus definitely saying that demons should not be cast out of unbelievers, or people unwilling to change, as they could end up worse than before? It's possible that they could be better, though of course it's a possibility that the scenario depicted in this sermon could come true. Do you think it's because the demon(s) cast out could meet other demons while they're gone and invite them back to the person, that is, demons that they wouldn't have encountered had they not been cast out of the person in the first place? - ANSWER
FIRST, if you have the gift of the Spirit to cast out demons, you are given the gift to use. You do not know all the ways of the Lord, so if I had that gift I'd use it, and leave the rest in God's hands. Oh, I would say that using that gift would also mean you talk to the person whom is now free of demonic possession. There they are, you are not to just walk away, and say nothing, that would be totally illogical. With such a gift you also have the responsibility to inform the person it was from God. You'd go on to explain about God's love, mercy, salvation through Jesus Christ; yes a little sermon shall we call it. If this is local in event, you'd want to revisit the person and talk more about God, Christ, and the Bible. You would have to share this gift with anyone; what comes after is ultimately in the hands of the Lord. If an unbeliever is not converted in a short time, that is not specifically your business. You do what you can as I've just stated but the WHEN for them to come to real conversion is God's timing not our; we plant the seeds God brings forth the fruit in His time. Trying to out guess God in anything is a folly to enter in on. You use the gift from the Lord to help and serve others no matter who they are. Most of the time THE person and/or relatives, friends etc. seeing what you've done, usually has some of them seriously wanting to understand the God in whose name you just did the miracle. As I've said, Satan can do miracles; as anyone wanting to find the true God and His truths, you still use the Bible to check to see they are teaching correctly - Isa 8:20 would still apply, under ANY miracle done by anyone. A miracle done is not automatically meaning they are teaching the truths of the Bible. The Devil can get you on "emotions" - any kind of emotion, and hence he can also get you on "miracles" perform also.
Your last question: I have no clue, do not know the answer to that one..... whatever.....would only be surmising at best.
Mr. Hunt
You said that God will keep demons cast out from reentering a person while that person seeks God. In that case, that person had better not delay too much. I guess it only makes sense that upon having those demons cast out of him, that person can't say to himself, "I'll enjoy the unconverted life a little while longer before converting," because then God will allow those demons back into him for that kind of attitude, even though he has committed to converting to Christianity later. Would you agree?
ANSWER
God knows the heart for sure; you can't fool Him. I've said elsewhere that the person with the gift of casting out demons, would [I certainly would] desire to teach the individual about the true God right away. So yes part of the lesson Jesus was giving would be, having had something like that happen to you, when swept and clean of demon/s you can't keep just putting God and Christ out of your life; be not filled with God and his Word; even deliberately putting it off...... well in such a specific case, you will run the danger of ending up in a worst mess than before. Being in that situation and having the demon cast out, would normally give a person so much thankfulness
they would want the true God and his word. So you can see the disappointment God would have if a person with any maturity, did not seek him, after being given such a deliverance. - Mr. Hunt
"So you can see the disappointment God would have if a person with any maturity, did not seek Him, after being given such a deliverance." - Mr. Hunt
Well, the question was about a person who does seek God, but just delays it. It could be by months, years, etc. That person could hold true to his commitment and seek God after the deliverance, but only years later. The purpose of my question was to show people whether or not this kind of thinking was dangerous. Just to remove any ambiguity from your answer, let's say that a person has demons cast out of him, realizes the deliverance was from God, and decides to become a Christian 2 years from this deliverance. Let's say that he is 100% honest about this commitment, and indeed does become a Christian 2 years later. Would God allow the demons to come back into him between those 2 years, because he is waiting too long?
ANSWER
MAYBE....but I ain't God, and He has not told me. Jesus was certainly saying you cannot be delivered from a demon/s and just go your merry way and not be filled with the one who really did the miracle....God. To purposely decide to put off seeking and learning about this God, after such a miracle, does not sit right with me, but I am not God. If I had the gift to cast out demons, and I did so to someone, and they said to me, "Think I'll wait for a couple of years before becoming a Christian." I would turn them to this passage of Jesus we are discussing, and say, "I pray, literally, you will not procrastinate, as you could be flirting with even more danger." BUT the bottom line is still with God.
Mr. Hunt
I guess there's only one more question that I can ask on demon possession. Is the following true?
What does it mean to be possessed?
Contrary to modern belief, to be possessed with a demon in the Bible was NOT referring to a demon owning a person at all. The phrase 'possessed with a devil' actually means the person has a demon, is under the power of a demon, or is vexed (harassed, tormented or troubled) by an evil spirit. A far cry from ownership. The Bible is clear that all souls belong to God, therefore making ownership impossible:
Ezekiel 18:4, "Behold, all souls are mine..."
ANSWER
Being influenced by a demon, tempted by a demon [Jesus in the 40 day wilderness being tempted by Satan], and possessed is two TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS!
To say or quote "Behold, all souls are mine..." to try to prove the point, of no demon owning a person, as the argument you are quoting from someone, is silly. Of course God owns EVERYTHING, the whole universe and all that is in it, including all human beings. But to say there is NO demon POSSESSION, owning a person, living inside a person, is TOTALLY incorrect as you read the New Testament. As a young child reading my Bible and especially the Gospels, at age 9,10,11 etc. it was perfectly clear to me the Gospels taught that demons can live inside a person and control them, that demon possession was REAL.
Of course God owns everything, that is not the point. The point is "What does God ALLOW to be done in the universe, by Satan and the demons." It's the case of LIKE JOB.....God ALLOWED things to be done to Job by Satan. Now Job was never demon POSSESSED, but to quote part of a verse that says, God owns all souls, so there is no such thing as demon possession, is real bad, I mean real bad, theology.
God ALLOWS all kinds of things to Satan and the demons, to do in this universe. The Gospels make it abundantly clear [if you read the Gospels as a child] some individuals were POSSESSED by a demon or demons. They lived INSIDE a person, CONTROLLED A PERSON, SO THEY HAD NO CONTROL OVER THEMSELVES, and the demon/s CAME OUT FROM INSIDE that person. That is made as clear as a cloudless day, in the Gospels.
Sure God owns everything, but God ALLOWS things to be done by the demonic world; one of those allowed things, is that demon/s can live inside individuals, in that sense demons "own" the individual; the individual has no control over what they do; we say things like, "They are out of control" or "They are not themselves" - some, whom people have known as very normal, then they become very UN-NORMAL, like night and day changed, out of control, under the control of something un-normal.....COULD BE, according to the Gospels, under the control, owned by the demon/s now living inside that person. And need to be cast OUT of that person, just like specific instances in the Gospels, that show us very clearly demons are allowed by God to live INSIDE a person. GOD still ultimately OWNS all people, and will work His PLAN for them for salvation, in His time schedule, and for some He ALLOWS demons to live inside a person, letting the demon work his work inside them for whatever length of time God allows. But God, owning everything, still owning the demon possessed person, can have the demon/s cast out. God is SUPREME OWNER of ALL things, He ALLOWS Satan and the demons to work, including living inside a person, but because God is still SUPREME OWNER He can have the demon cast out anytime He decides.- Mr. Hunt
Thank you for your reply. It reminds me of a teaching I read somewhere that I rejected. It said that Satan and his demons aren't capable of implanting thoughts. He used Job as an example, and said that the Bible never mentioned Satan implanting thoughts into Job's mind. He said that Satan was focused only on the external, killing his family, property, and afflicting his body, but not his mind.
ANSWER
In the case of Job that was true; but the book of Job is only PART OF THE BIBLE. Such teaching is like reading the Bible with horse blinders on; they are a piece of leather sticking out of the bridle to cover the eyes of the horse, so it can not see what is coming up on the sides....used in the horse racing world or anywhere, where the horse gets nervous at things, as they have about a 340 degree sight range. Reading only a part of the Bible, gets you into many false ideas and so false doctrines of Christianity. How did Satan tempt Jesus after 40 days in the wilderness; yes could have manifested himself in person to Jesus and talked, but the most likely is Satan spoke to Jesus in the mind. Also when Jesus said to Peter, "Get behind me Satan for you speak not the things of God." It is very obvious Satan implanted a thought into Peter's mind, for Peter to come out saying what he said, and Jesus having to rebuff Satan, speaking through the MIND and the MOUTH of Peter.
Mr. Hunt
He also said that the only way Satan can influence your thoughts is through the world, but not directly by implanting thoughts. I'm not sure how he figured that Satan can only influence people through the world if he can't implant thoughts into people's minds to make the world what it is as a means by which to influence people through it.
ANSWER
Again what I said above blows away this idea of Satan only influences through the world. How on earth does the world get as mixed up as it is IF Satan CANNOT put thoughts into peoples minds. Let's take HITLER as our example, the man was deceived by his OWN EGO, but also by getting messages from Satan into his mind. He was probably also at times POSSESSED by Satan the Devil. So it goes with MANY down through the ages who brought HORROR and DEATH on people.
Reading the WHOLE Bible blows away such weak and silly theology. The Gospels make it very clear Satan and demons can not only put thoughts into people's minds, so be tempted, as Jesus was in the wilderness and even as Peter did, say wrong ideas, but also posses people. The Gospels make this abundantly clear this is so, if you read the Gospels as a child.
Mr. Hunt,
I found the part of the article that talks about Matthew:
"Matt.16: 21-24 “Be Gone Satan” “Get out of my sight Satan!” Jesus addresses Satan as the originator of the lie that Peter just articulated. - ANSWER
The lie Peter articulated is the lie that was the primary one Israel has been deceived by Satan into believing.
The lie is that the Messiah was to come and set up his kingdom without any need for a making a sacrifice for sin, that in turn bred another lie, that in order to enter the kingdom of God there is no humbling before God and no recognition of sin needed.
Peter got this lie from the entire nation around him, from the world.
I call this the Satanic information network. It is the compilation of lies that Satan implants in a culture or society.
I don’t believe that Satan put that directly into Peter’s mind, he had implanted it in the nation and culture. Peter was saying what many were saying.
Jesus was emphasizing that Satan is behind this lie and warning Peter and his other disciples about it."
I WILL ANSWER THIS SOON, IT BRINGS UP POINTS ABOUT STUDYING THE BIBLE, MAKING DOCTRINES AND CLEVERLY ANSWERING THE VERSES THAT WOULD TURN YOUR IDEAS UPSIDE DOWN; IT'S ANOTHER CLEVER WAY OF SATAN TO HAVE YOU BELIEVING HE AND HIS DEMONS HAVE VERY LIMITED WAYS WHEN DEALING WITH HUMANS.
Mr.Hunt
I thought of only one thing that can make what the author says make sense. What if Satan can't implant thoughts, but can only incite our emotions that lead to certain thoughts? Maybe he can do this by controlling our glands and/or hormones or whatever.- ANSWER
HE HAS MANY WAYS THAT ARE ALLOWED BY GOD, TO DECEIVE AND CAPTURE AND HOLD PEOPLE. IT'S NOT SO MUCH CONTROLLING OUR GLANDS AND/OR HORMONES OR WHATEVER, BUT..... WELL, EXAMPLE: A PERSON HAS A QUICK BAD TEMPER; WITH WHAT GOD HAS ALLOWED FOR SATAN TO WORK HIS WORK, SATAN CAN USE THAT QUICK BAD TEMPER AGAINST US AND TOWARDS OTHERS. BEING OVERLY SENTIMENTAL, THAT EMOTION HE CAN USE TO CLOUD GOOD SOLID REASONING AND CALM LOGIC. IT'S LIKE SAYING TO SOMEONE, "YOUR EMOTIONS ARE GETTING THE BETTER OF YOU" OR "USE YOUR HEAD AND DO NOT LET YOUR EMOTIONS GET THE BETTER OF YOU."
NOW TO ANSWER A POINT ON BIBLE STUDY:
Some people will grab hold of a verse, a passage, or even a whole book of the Bible. For whatever reason [often it personally appeals to them, they want it so] this becomes their "doctrine" - so taking the book of JOB they see that Satan could only attack Job, externally. Being such a large book, for them this becomes the sure "doctrine of God" - Satan can not get into our mind; Satan and the demons can not possess human beings; they can only use external things to influence us.
Now they are not stupid enough to not realize there are verses and passages of the Bible that would "contradict" or "add more light" or "give a fuller picture" to the doctrine. So they know they must have an answer for these other passages. So the passage Matt.16:21-24.
ONE of the easiest ways for them is to answer from a "historical" background. They may not give you a reference from history, they just tell you this or that was a part of Jewish life and thought, something was already there then in Peter's mind from general Jewish life and thought. They know that MOST [say 95.5 percent] of readers will never take the time to "look up" what they claim was Jewish life thought. So their answer from history satisfies the 95.5 percent of people. Their doctrine still stands, and people are still with them. Now they may quote a reference from "Jewish history" to back up their answer. Most of the time they will never tell you, this quote is from a "certain sect" of Judaism. And they will not tell you there were many sects in Judaism in Jesus' day. They will not tell you the Sadducees and Pharisees DIFFERED on many "theological" issues. They want you to believe their quote covers ALL of Jewish life and thought.
And of course they will not tell you what I'm about to tell you. To understand the MAIN doctrines of God in the Bible, you do not have to have a PhD in theology; you do not have to understand Hebrew and Greek; you do not need to read dozens of books "on the Bible" by so-called "experts" of theology; you do not need to know about Jewish life and thought at Jesus' time. What you need is first as Jesus said, "Unless you become as little children you cannot enter the Kingdom of God." Just believe the plain clear verses as they are, and as they should be commonly taken with normal logic. Then you need to read the ENTIRE Bible.
To find the truth on any topic of the Bible, you must read the WHOLE Bible. You must find ALL the verses in the entire Bible on that subject. Now I will say there is one book to make that easier - Strong's Concordance of the Bible - it gives you EVERY passage in the Bible where a particular word is found, i.e. "grace" or "repentance" etc. But the whole Bible needs to be read. So yes much time will be needed. So as you read Matt. 16 under discussion, you know nothing about Jewish history life [and you don't have to]; you know nothing about what any Jewish sect believed on the matter [and you don't have to]. You read the very plain and clear words written. Peter says something; he did not say, "Well the Pharisees say...." - there is NO QUALIFYING words - it is Peter alone, rebuking and saying to Jesus, "No it shall not happen to you." Pretty simple to understand, yes, even a child can understand what Peter said. Jesus' reply to Peter is just as simple to understand; no vague language; no parable; no messing around as we say. Jesus speaks directly to Satan. He does not say, "Now Peter you and Jewish culture have it wrong" or "Peter you are speaking so, as influenced by Jewish thought." Jesus talks directly to Satan, "Get behind me Satan......"
Jesus knew it was quite possible for Satan to use the mind and mouth of a man, to say things NOT from God. So Jesus spoke directly to Satan, NOT to Peter as such. In this case it was not just Peter saying things from Jewish culture; Jewish culture and thoughts are not here mentioned. Satan was directly in the mind of Peter, yes based on the weakness and emotions of the human flesh; but the one behind the very words of Peter was Satan; Jesus knew it and Jesus then spoke directly to Satan. Now as I've said already, when I was a kid of 10, 11, 12, I had already read these words in Matt. 16. It was as easy as breathing to understand the teaching here given is that Satan can get into your mind, take your human emotional feelings [Peter got emotional at what Jesus had just told them], and use them to have your mind and voice coming forth with things that were NOT from God.
There should be no problem understanding the book of JOB, it is easy to read God told Satan he could only do certain things and no more to Job; just saying that to Satan means Satan could have done more to Job, but God, in Job's case, did not allow it. And it should be just as easy to understand Matt.16:21-24. You read it and simply believe the words that were spoken.
READ ALL THE BIBLE, FIND ALL VERSES ON ANY BIBLE TOPIC, AND READ IT AS A CHILD!
QUESTION
Does Satan implant thoughts through inspiration? That is, can he use his powers to get people to think what he wants us to think on our own? If he could only implant thoughts through a voice in our heads, it would be obvious that an outside power is influencing us.
ANSWER
Most of the time, it is NOT through a voice coming to us in our heads. Some people do say they literally hear voices speaking to them; that is also how the demons can work, but certainly not all the time. Most of the time for most people it is we who are thinking it is from our "normal" mind-set. Back to Peter again in Matt. 16. It is obvious Peter did not hear a voice. Peter had heard Jesus saying to them.....Peter's mind was acting in what we could describe as a loving emotion towards Jesus. Peter's mind at this time in his life, could not imagine Jesus suffering physical things from the Jewish elders, even death and resurrection. His mind was befuddled with such words coming from Jesus. So with Peter's mind being "emotionally charged" at such ideas, Satan was able to get in and as Jesus said, say things NOT from God. Remember Peter was NOT YET CONVERTED.....remember Jesus said to Peter one time, "When you are converted......" The Feast of Pentecost experience of Acts 2 had not yet arrived. As a converted Christian, Satan has much less power or opportunity to do with you what he did with Peter in Matt.16, providing you are staying close to God in your life, and walk with Him. If some days, or some hours of the day, you allow human nature to boil over the pot, and you are not very close to God, then Satan can jump in, and with your fleshly human nature coming under the green light [go,go,go] ...... well you are ripe for Satanic attacks in different forms. That is why Paul and other apostles kept saying in various ways as they admonished the saints, "Finally my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the Devil....." Eph. 6:10, 11.- ………………………..
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