Satan's Fate
Still more Questions and Answers
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ON SATAN'S FATE Q. I'm ALL about context. I say the same thing to others ... and not just in one verse but within the bible as a whole. Did I not use context when you said that Jude was saying that the angels were wandering stars to mean that they might roam in the darkness of the universe, when in fact the context teaches that he was talking of false teachers? A. I said Jude was given a number of examples what you can compare false ministers to; one was wandering stars in darkness, which could mean things like meteorites that are good for nothing and some do cause serious damage. Then again that is only one understanding; the other is "stars = angels" and so this could be relating to fallen angels banished from God's family to wander the blackness of daskness forever, which then would be for them the "torment for the ages of the ages" - Rev.20:10. Q. You said the word "from" has a huge meaning, but as I said before there is no word "from" in the Hebrew. It and the word "the" are both attached to the word that was translated "midst," which can also mean "among" or "in." A. J.P.Green Sr. in his Hebrew/English Interlinear does write "from among" - #8432 in Strong's Concordance, but a slight jot or title or mark, well whatever ... Strong does give also "sever" "out (of), so other verses in the Bible would have to "clinch" the correct way to understand this verse in Ezekiel. And so we are left with verses like Rev.20:10 - "tormented for the ages of the ages." and this comes way after Ezekiel. I believe Revelation 20:10 is the clincher. Now here are various well known translations of this Ezekiel passage: The full impact of Green's translation is in the PAST tense, already done: "...and you sinned, So I cast you" - "and I destroyed you profaned from the height of God, and I destroyed you O cherub covering, from among the stones of fire...." Notice the past tense Green uses "I cast you" "and I destroyed you" - something already done. There is a certain part of heaven Satan no longer has access to, but he's still very much alive. The Holy Bible from ancient Eastern Manuscripts by Lamsa: ...with iniquity you have sinned; therefore I will cast you from the mountain of God; and I will destroy you, o sheltering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire." The Holy Bible 1611 KJV: "...and thou has sinned: therefore I will cast thee as prophane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering Cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire." The New American Standard Bible: ...And you have sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane from the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you O covering cherub From the midst of the stones of fire." Did you again notice the "past" tense was used, as that this has already been done, and Satan is still alive. Farrar Fenton likewise gives the same thought: "Until in yourself the corruption was formed....So I flung you out from the mountain of godhood. And sent your guardian Spirit from among the bright gems..." It was an action that has already taken place, but Satan is still very much alive.
Amplifies Version: "...you were filled with lawlessness and violence, and you sinned; therefore I cast you out as a profane thing from the mountain of God and the guarding cherub drove you out from the midst of the stones of fire." Ah, there must be enough evidence in the way the Hebrew is that the Amplified scholars and others rendered it as they did - still past tense. The Complete Jewish Bible by David Stern: "You became filled with violence; and in this way you sinned. Therefore I have thrown you out, defiled, from the mountain of God; I have destroyed you, protecting 'keruv' from among the stones of fire." Again another scholar of Hebrew puts it in the past tense, already done, and the Devil still lives on. NIV translates: "...you were filled with violence and you sinned. So I drove you disgraced from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones." Once more past tense they render it, already done, but Satan lives on. The New Living Translation: "...evil was found in you.... and you sinned. So I banished you from the mountain of God. I expelled you., O mighty guardian, from your place among the stones of fire." Once more a past tense translation, and the Devil lives on. Tanakh - Jewish OT Bible: "You were filled with lawlessness and you sinned. So I have struck you down from the mountain of God, and I have destroyed you, O shielding cherub, from among the stones of fire." Another past action, God already has done it, Satan still lives on. Interesting translation from the LXX (Septuagint) - Greek OT: "...filled thy storehouse with iniquity, and hast sinned; therefore thou hast been cast down wounded from the mount of God, and the cherub has brought thee out of the midst of the stones of fire." Still rendered in the Greek in the PAST tense, already done, but Satan lives on. The New KJV: And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of God; and I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the fiery stones." Past tense given again, its already been done - but the Devil lives on. It would surely seem from the above scholars that the correct translation is in the PAST tense, something God has already done! Now when Satan appeared before God in the book of Job, he was no doubt appearing before the SECOND MEMBER of the Godhead, the One who became Jesus Christ, and their meeting would not have been in the very throne room of God the Father, the stones of fire, as Satan had (when it was) been cast out of that very intimate close presence with the God we now call the Father. It would seem from the Hebrew the majority of scholars are in agreement this should be translated as the PAST tense, an act already done, and has nothing to do with the future beyond us. Q. There is no debate about the torment. I don't ignore that fact at all. It also says wicked men will be tormented. Just because someone says something about torment doesn't mean there's no end to it. A. But Revelation clearly says Satan's torment will be day and night for the ages of the ages, human torment in the second death is but for a very short time. Q. I'm not saying I'm dead-set in whether Satan and his angels are completely destroyed. For now, though, it does seem to me that is how it will be. The arguments you are using are not very convincing to me. A. Of course we all have to work our way through all this. I think the passages are quite clear to me that Satan will NOT be destroyed. Q. As far as darkness forever, it also says the same thing of wicked humans. A. The wicked humans are "likened" to them, they are not them, nor does it apply to them. It is the stars that go in darkness forever; the false prophets are "useless" just as those stars are useless wandering in blackness forever. No they are like certain things, they are not the things, only like certain things. The "star" is just one thing they are like .... useless things that wander around in darkness (the false prophets being in spiritual darkness, and bring wandering useless theology. I'm sure you've met those who wander from one church group to another, never it seems finding the truth, or as the proverb goes, "They stumble over truth and pick themselves up and walk on as if nothing had happened." Q. What about Jude 1:6 which says: And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Those angels are LOCKED in chains in DARKNESS until their final judgment. Now, would it make sense that their judgement is less than what they are experiencing now? They are locked in darkness and cannot go anywhere. Will their judgement be less where they can be in darkness and yet not be locked in chains? That just doesn't make sense to me. A. It is talking about being locked in spiritual chains of darkness. They decided to rebel against God, and so God has handed them over to the darkness of mind that they chose themselves. But being so, that does not mean they have no "influence" and even strong power over human kind, strong enough to often "possess" people of all ages. Yes their punishment in darkness is enough, they need no chains, for God will simply say the word and it will be done - the word "you stay in darkness of the universe and away from all creates and all of my family." God has all power and they cannot break that power once the word has gone worth from the Father's lips. They are locked in spiritual chains of darkness. Does not say they cannot move from earth, in fact before the Tribulation (Rev. 12) they do go to fight God's angels and are cast back down. You are still missing what I've said about when there is no more sin, when Satan and the demons have nothing they can influence or possess, believe me knowing their fallen nature, they will be most tormented when they can not keep bringing in sin through humans. If they are to wander through the darkness of space, well that will be some kind of hell for them, and they probably deserve such a life for eternity, they may well have had billions of years sinning and rebelling against God. I will be open and frank. I have no sympathy for the Devil and the demons. My judgment would be they VERY WELL DESERVE to live for the ages of the ages in mental torment, away from God and His family. We probably do not know the half as they say, as to all the sin and damage (even in the physical universe), that Satan and the demons have done for perhaps BILLIONS of years. This might seem hard nosed, but God is justice. To think this greatest of all sinners could get way with all he has done, by just being burnt up in some lake of fire ..... no I do not see that as justice for him and the demons. Man's puny little life of sin (a millionth of a second compared to Satan), does only deserve to be destroyed, but Satan, he deserves a much longer punishment, "for the ages of the ages." Q. And why would God create a creature and then let it live in misery forever, when it asked not to be created? Humans who choose evil--opposite of God's way--are not given a spiritual body so that they can go around in misery forever. Why would God not destroy the angels, who also hated his way. Why would he keep someone around to live without end in misery? A They were created in a different zone of life. Satan was a covering cherub right over the throne of God, the angels no doubt had access to God's heaven, they saw Him, they were part of a world that needed no faith that He existed, they knew He existed. They were privileged in ways most of us are not. Yet they were created with free agency, and seeing all they could see and do, they chose to rebel against the Perfect One of the universe. Yes, they deserve a MUCH LARGER punishment than humans do. I for one will not feel sorry for them being out in darkness with no person or animal they can possess or influence, for the ages of the ages. It could well be they rebelled against God millions and perhaps billions of years ago. What they have done, the harm, destruction, and sin, in the universe, we only have a faint glimpse of at this present time. God is a God of not only mercy but justice. He is perfect, and if He has decided NO created angel or cherub will ever die, then I'm confident that perfect justice will be handed out on Satan and the fallen angels, and if that justice is for the Devil to be tormented for the ages of the ages, then so be it. God is God and He will deal out justice that is perfect. We may now only look through a glass darkly but one day we shall know even as we are known. Q. IF they are indeed tormented without end, I believe it is in the lake of fire, because that is where he was thrown to be tormented. I don't believe he leaves it. Rev. 14:10-11 says basically the same thing about people who go against God's way. A. The problem is the lake of fire is to burn up the earth as Peter was inspired to tell us in his epistle, and then a new earth to come. The fire will not continue for eternity. Spirit cannot be effected by physical fire, unless God says it will effect them also, but we have no verse that tells us it will effect them as burning them up and so not existing any more. Yet we do have Rev.20:10 that plainly says he's tormented to the ages of the ages. TYPOLOGY OF THE TWO GOATS ON THE FEAST OF ATONEMENT The very typology of the goat with all sins confessed on its head and then it's release into the wilderness, to go away, live, but "be gone" - be sent out of that human world. That typology fits perfectly into Satan NOT being destroyed, but sent away, from human life with all the sins of human life on its head. The two goats DO NOT represent the Lord Jesus. There would have been no need to cast lots on two perfect goats, if they BOTH were to represent Christ. The lots were cast so ONE could represent Christ and the other, the goat that was sent away into the wilderness - representing Satan the Devil - sent away carrying the sins of all the people. Satan was the author of sin, and it is written he will be tormented for the ages of the ages. Keith Hunt March 2010 |
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