Women in the Church? #2
Answers to various arguments
WOMEN'S ROLE IN THE CHURCH SERVICE....CONTINUED, PART TWO The Way: There is a similar situation in the case of the Greek words aner and gune. They are understood to mean "husband" and "wife" when used together, and to translate them as "man" and "woman" actually conceals the true meaning of the Greek text! COMMENT: Who says these two Greek words when found together are always to be understood as "husband" and "wife"? Where is such a rule found in the pages of the Bible? You need to remember that the NT was written in "common" Greek, not "classical" Greek of the Universities, and upper highly educated people. The NT was written in everyday down to earth language of the common people, this is now a known fact. Then, you need to remember the Bible does not come with a grammar text rule book, like some computer programs do. My WordPerfect program comes with a "spell check" and "grammar check" built in, the Bible does not. In fact the original manuscripts of both the Hebrew OT and the Greek NT had one letter after another, no spaces, no sentences, no paragraphs, no punctuation whatsoever. In fact the OT Hebrew originally did not have even any vowels. You will notice that in their statement above, they do not quote any book on NT grammar that was written along with the NT books. As far as I know no book on NT grammar has been discovered, that was written in the first century A.D. to explain all the verses of the NT in grammar form. So their dogmatic statement is just human reasoning or conjecture, or at best based upon classical Greek or modern Greek grammar. Besides all that talk about the rules of grammar, there is nothing to say the writers of the NT, using common Greek, had to follow any rules of grammar. I personally do not follow all English grammar rules in my writings, after all, rules of grammar are only the invention of other humans, and language does change over the process of time, and so does spelling and so does grammar. The Americans do not spell all English words as do the British (i.e. color-USA; colour-British). The argument above for the verses under discussion in 1 Tim. 2 can really bear no importance on the matter, as to determining the truth of Paul's teaching and instruction in this section on women's "teaching or not teaching in church services" nor also on the section in 1 Cor 14 regarding the same matter. It is especially the context of 1 Cor.14 that gives the truth of the matter. The two passages go hand in hand, both must be taken together. Paul was talking about the same topic within the teaching of different contexts, and gave some different explanations as to why he said the things he wrote were the commandments of the Lord (1 Cor.14:37). The Way: The key to understanding this verse is in knowing the proper translation of the Greek grammar for the verb "to teach." Paul uses the word didusko (Strong's #1321), which Thayer's Lexicon defines as: "(1) to teach, to hold discourse with others in order to instruct them, deliver didactic discourses, to be a teacher ... (2) to teach one, to impart instruction, instill doctrine into one..." Paul was indeed referring to women in the act of instructing! But that's not the whole story. COMMENT: It's not! Now it would seem to me that it is pretty plain, especially in 1 Cor.14. The context and the EMPHASIS of Paul in this chapter is "instruction" - "edification" - "teaching." See verses 4, 5, 6, 12, 17, 19, 24, 25, 31, 35. The whole idea of the church coming together into one place was so all may learn, be taught, be edified, be instructed in the ways of the Lord. After Paul had talked about the gifts of the Spirit, the use of tongues, the prophets and prophesying in the church as it came together into one place (verse 23), and knowing that these gifts of the Spirit could be given to women as well as men, he then answers the logical question: Can women then in official church services, use their gifts and teach and preach - expound the word of the Lord to the congregation? His answer is clearly given. He also answers the comment that would also naturally arise: Well I have this gift and the Spirit just led me to preach and teach before the church, I just could not help myself. For Paul, there was no such thing as "I could not help myself, the Spirit forced me to speak out to teach and preach before the gathered assembly." For Paul, the Spirit never forces anyone to do anything. Paul would reply: "And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets." Everyone can, in Paul's mind, control themselves and use the gifts of the Spirit as God directs, and when He directs. It was then after uttering that statement that he said the women are to keep silent in the church(when the church comes together in one place, official services). His context of the whole chapter is to do with teaching, expounding the word and ways of the Lord, what today we would call preaching in sermonettes(short messages) and sermons(long expoundings). BECAUSE OF A COMMA The Way: There was another subtle difference between what the KJV states and how most modern translations read. Notice again verse 12, from the NASB: "But I do not allow a woman [Greek: gune, wife] to teach or exercise authority over a man [aner, husband], but to remain quiet." There is a comma added in the KJV text which is not in most modern translations! Without the additional comma, the sense of the sentence would be that Paul was not forbidding women to teach in church services, but rather to both teach, and grasp control from, their husbands! If this is what Paul was saying, then many people have had a misunderstanding of this verse for a long time. As we will see, this is indeed what Paul was saying! COMMENT: Now how do you teach but not grasp control from your husbands? Usually the teacher is in control over those being taught. Usually they lead, they govern the situation, they control the floor so to speak. Have you ever seen a teacher that does not or is not able to grasp control of those they are supposed to be guiding and teaching, be it men or women, or a mixture of both? It soon degenerates into confusion and bedlam, certainly discomposure. Does the wife keep looking at her husband and somehow with her eye or hand tell him she has not grasped control from him? Does she give him some secret sign (only the two of them know about) now and then to tell him he can take control if he feels she has grasped control from him? Does he give her the nod to let her know she has grasped control from him (as he sits there part of the group being taught and led by her)? Do you see some of the problems in executing this idea that the wife can teach (what about women who are not wives or are widows?) but not grasp control from her husband? THE INFINITIVE MOOD The Way: If we look a bit more deeply, we will find that the grammar Paul used for the phrases "to teach" and "usurp authority" are in the present tense, active voice and infinitive mood. As we will see, this changes the whole flavor of the translation and, consequently, our understanding of the verse. The infinitive mood signifies that the action spoken of "pertains to continuous or repeated action, without any implications as to when the action takes place" (The Complete Word Study New Testament, ed. Zodhiates). COMMENT: The present tense is continuous action in the present ongoing time. The "when" of the action would be determined by the context. The context of what Paul is saying to Timothy regarding women not teaching must be found in other parts of the NT or other parts of the writings of Paul. And one major other part of Paul writing on the same subject is 1 Cor.14 and it's context is clearly given. It is when the church has come together into one place for instruction and edification in the word and ways of the Lord. The context of the whole NT shows as I have before proven in part one, that women can OUTSIDE of the church coming together into one place, speak about, teach about, preach about, edify about, instruct about, write about, the word and ways of the Eternal, to anyone, man or woman, teenager or child, as the Spirit of the Lord leads and directs. The Way: Zodhiates comments on this passage at 1 Timothy 2:9-15: "The key to understanding what the Apostle Paul is teaching is that woman should not try to appear or act like men. In addition to this, they should not attempt to usurp the position of their husbands in the home and in the church. God has appointed specific tasks for both women and for men. Childbearing is reserved for women, just as the role of a husband is set aside for men. Paul emphatically states that these were differences created by God Himself..... COMMENT: Where in this section does Paul say that women were trying to be like men? Does it say they were trying to "look" like men? He talks about them dressing modestly and having good works. Such could be said concerning men also. Can a woman not teach her children, or other children in a grade school? Can she not teach other people in her skill of secular work? How would she not usurp and not grasp control over her husband in secular skill teaching in her work, when her husband could be miles away working in a different trade and skill? In these specific verses of 1 Tim. 2 where does the word "church" and "home" appear? They do not! So, we must look elsewhere in the NT, and/or in the writings of Paul to find if there is any other specific instruction on women "not teaching" and where that injunction and command is to be carried out. We find it again from Paul in 1 Cor.14 where the context is made very clear and plain. It is when the church comes together into one place for edification and instruction in the word and ways of the Lord. The childbirth here spoken about is open for other interpretations, as some commentators point out. In the Greek the word "the" is present - "the childbirth." And as some point out Paul could have had in mind THE ONE childbirth that came through woman - the CHRIST! Hence verse 15 may not be talking about anything to do with her home life as a wife per se, but fulfilling her role in life, and knowing when and where to teach or not to teach, how to outwardly adorn herself with moderation, putting on good works, continuing in faith, love, holiness, and self-control(sobriety), then she can be saved through the childbearing of Christ Jesus. The Way: "In verse nine, the Greek word sophrosune [Strong's #4997]... provides the clue for the interpretation of this difficult passage. This Greek word, translated 'sobriety' [in KJV], means 'the voluntary limitations of one's freedom of thought and behavior,' or 'sober mindedness.' The truth is that in Christianity women became free and equal to their husbands. Nevertheless, there was always a danger that they might take this freedom beyond the limitations that God had placed when He appointed man as head over woman in the marital relationship. No two people or things can be exactly the same. The inherent differences in people and things must be recognized by a sophron, or a 'sober minded' person. This is one who recognizes his abilities and his limitations, and is mindful of his behavior in certain given circumstances." COMMENT: This sober-mindedness, or self-control as the New KJV renders it, also contains within it for a Christian, the understanding that man was to lead in spiritual head of tribes, congregational worship towards God. We certainly see this clearly brought to light starting with Moses and the children of Israel. God instituted a religious congregational (when you come before me together in one place) worship service, and all who did the teaching (and physical sacrificing of the animals at that time) under that system were MEN. As they met in one place to worship the Lord, those responsible for the teaching service were chosen and/or ordained men. There are no examples in the entire Bible, that any woman ever taught or expounded or preached the word or ways of the Eternal, during the time when the Church of God ( in the OT or the NT) came together into one place in an official worship service. That expounding and teaching of the word of the Lord was always the duty of men for the one to three hours a week that such gatherings of the church were called. The Way: Zodhiates later comments, "Furthermore, the word for 'teach' in this verse is the Greek infinitive didaskein (1321). In this instance, it means 'to teach continuously.' The Situation refers to the home, and assembly, or anywhere the husband and wife may be interacting together. If this were the case, the position of the husband as the head would be undermined, and would not be in accordance with God's ordained order in creation. A wife should place limitations on her speech. Paul does not want women to be lacklustre or mute, but to be careful lest they go beyond the bounds of accepted propriety. COMMENT: Oh, so now the wife must not continually speak or teach or preach or expound the word in the assembly, in case the position of her husband as the head would be undermined. Hummm, so how much is continual? Do we have to have a ministerial conference to decide the matter? Is she to stop talking for say 5 minutes every so often, so it will not be continual? Does she nod at him to tell him she is placing limitations on her speech and he can take over for a while? What if he is out of town for the weekend or for a month on business, are these limitations of speech then discarded and not effective? Can she then teach and preach continually without a five minute break, or without having him take over for a while? I mean to say, what do we define as "continuously"? Is a 5 minute expounding of the Scriptures not classified as "continuously" but a 10 minute preaching or teaching would be "continuously" hence not allowed, or her husband would have to chime in with a two minute commercial break? Or would we classify that if she takes a drink of water half way through her sermonette or sermon, that would not be "continuously" and so permitted? Now that's just trying to arrange this "not continuously" within the church, when it comes together into one place, but what about trying to arrange it at home, when human nature and emotions are more open and active. What then is "continuous" talk on the part of the wife? Who sets the bounds, and by what standard? Where are the examples of all this in the word of the Lord? Where are some kind of time laws or rules or examples found to guide us and the wives in determining what is "not continuously."? I can find teaching and examples on how a woman of God can dress at times, under different situations. I can find all kinds of teachings and examples on the "good works" a woman should have, written in the pages of the Bible. I can find examples of women teaching the word of God to others (even to men) outside of the context of the church coming together into one place, written in the pages of the Bible. But, can I find anything about women "not continuously" talking so to usurp authority over her husband, not one word as to guide me on what is continuous talk for a woman, hence wrong or sin for her. The Way: "Moreover, the word translated 'to usurp authority over' is the Greek word authentein (831). Essentially, a wife's private or public life should be beyond reproach and never undermine the position that her husband has been given by God. Also, a wife should never encroach upon the role of her husband." COMMENT: Ah, now finally we are down to "role" - the role of men and women. As far as Salvation, a Child of God - being able to study and understand the word of the Lord, having a reward in the Kingdom based upon what you did with what you were given from the Father, then there is no male or female, there is no Jew or Gentile, all are fully equal. But that does not mean I as a male can produce babies from my body in childbirth. No! Only women can still do that. God did make male and female, and technically the male was created first, and later the woman. The Lord intended from the beginning to have certain functions or roles within certain contexts, for both the male and the female. One of those roles or functions was who would be responsible for the "teaching, preaching, expounding" of the word and ways of the Father and Christ, in the setting, context, of the church coming together into one place. Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi has written a whole book on this very subject of the roles of men and women in the Church. I recommend to the reader [and those who want to study this subject in depth], his book. The Way: Then, what Paul was saying in 1 Timothy 2:12 is: 'I do not allow a wife to continuously teach, or to continually exercise authority over, her husband"! COMMENT: That is what man says Paul was saying, but it just is not so, just is not so at all my friends. With what is stated that Paul was supposedly stating, we are back to the problems of "continuously." So Paul, we could argue, did not allow a woman to teach in services EVERY Sabbath, for that would be "continuously." So Paul only allowed her to teach or preach or expound the Scripture, once a month. Then he only allowed a woman to teach in the congregational service under 10 minutes, otherwise it was "continuously" and so exercising authority over her husband. On and on we could go with our ideas of interpreting how to put into practice the above explanation of what Paul was supposed to have been teaching. And the ministerial conferences on the matter would be endless and subject to change as new ideas were presented. The Way: The husband is to teach the wife. The wife should not be teaching the husband. For a husband to be asking his wife about the scriptures (especially in those days when women were not formally educated at all) is not appropriate, and does not fit into the universal family concept found throughout all nations and cultures, where the husband is the head of the household. In today's society, there might be one exception to this principle. If a wife has been attending church services for years, as a member of the ekklesia, and then her husband is called and comes into the assembly, the wife may likely have more Bible knowledge than the husband. In this case, the husband might not be able to answer the wife's questions because of a lack of skill in the Word. A loving wife would want to bring her newly baptized husband along in the faith by teaching him what she knows, and there should be no problem involved with her sharing her knowledge under these circumstances. However, the husband is still the head of the family. The wife is still not allowed to dominate, even if she has superior Bible knowledge. COMMENT: While in the main I agree with what is said above, the Bible is speaking in GENERAL terms that the head of the wife and the family is the husband. As pointed out above, there could be individual situations where the wife takes the leading if she knows more. That would be the husband loving his wife in the right manner, and having enough common sense and wisdom, together with humility, to know she should take the lead in that circumstance. But now, give me a break with that last sentence. Outside the setting of the church coming together into one place, and the wife or the woman having more knowledge of the Bible than the husband or the man, there IS NO RULE, there is no LAW from God saying, "well it must be this way" or "it must be that way." We are not told who had the most Bible knowledge between Priscilla and Aquila when they instructed Apollos. It may well have been the wife for all we know. We are just not told! In those situations of expounding the truths of God to others outside of church services, it is open floor, full freedom, as the Spirit leads, and as the gifts of the Spirit have been given to each individual. Naturally, a husband and wife will work as a team with the love and respect and with the knowledge of each others abilities (Eph.5:21-33; 1 Peter 3:7), to the best edifying of those they are called to teach. And it could be the woman will have more gifts and more ability to expound and put into words
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